[music]
Salman Rushdie: This is Salman Rushdie
Julia Sweeney: Hi, this is Julia Sweeney.
E.O. Wilson: This is E.O. Wilson.
Dar Williams: Hi, this Dar Williams and you're listening to the...
Salman Rushdie: ...Humanist Network.
All in unison: Humanist Network News.
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Jes Constantine: It's October 24, and you're listening to the Humanist Network News, an audio production by the Institute for Humanist Studies. I'm your host, Jes Constantine.
Duncan Crary: And I'm your host, Duncan Crary. If you're just joining us for the first time and you're wondering what humanism is, humanism is a non-religious philosophy based on reason and compassion.
Jes Constantine: Happy anniversary, Duncan.
Duncan Crary: Happy anniversary, Jes. This is show #24, and we're on a monthly schedule. So that means that at least I have been doing this for two years.
Jes Constantine: Good math, Duncan.
Duncan Crary: And there's maybe someone out there whose been listening from the beginning. I don't know, might have lost us there. So what do we have to show for ourselves after two years?
Jes Constantine: Well Duncan, not only do we have an all-star lineup today for our anniversary show.
Duncan Crary: That's how we're going to celebrate.
Jes Constantine: But we've also been featured or awarded.
Duncan Crary: We've gotten some kudos.
Jes Constantine: Yeah.
Duncan Crary: I was Googling us online and we noticed that "The Independent", a major daily newspaper in the UK, awarded us
two times, Critic's Choice.
Jes Constantine: That's pretty awesome.
Duncan Crary: Pat on the back.
Jes Constantine: So today, we've got Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Christopher Hitchens. Now these four are best-selling authors who are known for being outspoken and blunt (in their criticism of religion), and they've also been dubbed lately "the "New Atheists"." We've also got Brian and Kelly of the Rational Response Squad. We've got Pastor Deacon Fred of the Landover Baptist Church.
Duncan Crary: Oh boy.
Jes Constantine: And we've got an audio version of "Sweet Reason."
Duncan Crary: How the heck did we get all these people. Jes?
Jes Constantine: Duncan, you've been quite busy.
Duncan Crary: Yeah.
Jes Constantine: Don't pretend that you don't know.
Duncan Crary: It's one of those questions I already know that answer to.
Jes Constantine: Most recently, Duncan, you went to the
Atheist Alliance International Conference, which was held September 28-29 in the Crystal City, which is in the D.C. metropolitan area.
Duncan Crary: I drove down with Evan Gran, the Norwegian reporter who was on our
last podcast, to the conference, and we got
really lost down there in Crystal City. I kept driving into the Pentagon, which you're not supposed to do. But we made it and it was a stupendous event. A sold out show and so many big names that everywhere you turned, you saw someone famous.
Jes Constantine: There's been some hype surrounding the scheduling of this event, right?
Duncan Crary: Is this one of those questions that
you know the answer to, Jes? Yeah, on
HNN podcast #10, Jes and Matt Cherry interviewed Margaret Downey, the president of
Atheist Alliance International. And you held her feet to the fire and said, "Why do the two major national atheist organizations hold their annual conferences on the same weekend? Because you have to choose one or the other."
Margaret told our listeners that she was working on changing that date, and she did. And as a result, there were hundreds of people on the waiting list for this conference. And one of the people who made it was Ellen Johnson, who's the president of
American Atheists. So I think that atheist 'cold war' of sorts has finally thawed.
Jes Constantine: The last major conference that we covered was the
New Humanism Conference, hosted by the
Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard. And since we heard from the "New Humanists," we thought it's only fair to hear from now the "New Atheist" side of the spectrum.
Duncan Crary: The
New Humanism Conference was, in part, a reaction to the harsh criticisms that the ""New Atheists"" have towards organized religion. Interestingly enough, Sam Harris, at the Atheist Alliance International Conference, delivered a speech titled, "
The Problem (with) Atheism". Now Sam Harris is the author of
End of Faith and
Letter to a Christian Nation.
He is known as one of the "New Atheists", but in his talk he actually addressed the crowd and said that we should not identify ourselves as atheists, Brights, humanists or anything else. We should simply represent ourselves as reasonable, rational people. I've been very interested in this topic, as you know, Jes. Being a skeptic means you have to also be skeptical of, say,
the skeptical "movement." And you have to ask yourself the million-dollar question: Is there something oxymoronic in "Organized Freethought"?
Jes Constantine: Well you had the opportunity to interview Sam Harris about this at the conference, so let's hear that now.
[Back to Transcript Table of Contents]
Duncan Crary (interview): Sam Harris, I think that of all the speakers and all the events that have occurred so far, you made news with your talk last night. And I'd like to recap briefly and ask you some supplemental questions. You mentioned to the crowd that "atheist" as a label was a matter of convenience for you. People were labeling you as an atheist and so you just said, "OK, I'm an atheist." But you made a point about why you don't necessarily want to refer to yourself as an atheist. Could you recap that simply?
Sam Harris: Sure. Well I think it's a philosophical and a strategic error. As a matter of philosophy, atheism is not a worldview, and yet, it is being construed as one by its opponents and attacked as a worldview. People have many erroneous associations with what is entailed in not believing in God, and I think we collaborate in that misunderstanding by labeling ourselves in opposition to religion.
We should notice that there are thousands, really an uncountable number of bad ideas that we all reject, and yet, we don't label ourselves in opposition to them. Something like astrology, we don't label ourselves "non-astrologers." I think we should take some instruction from that fact.
What we're doing is falling into a trap, in some sense, set by religious people because atheism as a term is so ill-dignified in our culture. It has such bad PR that to answer to the name of atheist, in some sense, already wins the argument for your religious opponent. It shouldn't be so, but I think we have to be wise and realize that we have a terrible PR problem.
And so the question is what to do instead, and I think we can use words like "reason", "evidence" and "common sense" instead. And in the same way we would repudiate the views of astrologers if they were gaining great traction in our culture, with words like "reason" and "evidence", we could do the same about claims about religion, and the magic origin of certain books etc.
Duncan Crary: Where does this leave organized atheism? Do you think that the atheist movement is doing, inadvertently, more harm than good? What should atheist organizations do with this new idea that you have?
Sam Harris: Well it depends. If everyone suddenly agreed with me, I'm not quite sure what we should do. We would have to change some websites and some business cards. For instance, Richard Dawkins named his foundation the
Richard Dawkins Foundation for Science and Reason. I think that was the right move. I think he would have lost his potential influence if he named it the "Richard Dawkins Foundation for Atheism." And it seems to me that he can say whatever he wants to say against religion, until the end of time, under the aegis of reason and evidence or science and reason.
Sam Harris: And so, maybe there is a role for being outspoken as atheists, self-labeling at the moment, and maybe there's some transitional importance to this. But I think it's pretty clear that if we ever really succeed -- if we get what we want, if we raise the standards of intellectual honesty in public discourse, if we get people to see that they're not certain about the existence of God or the virgin birth of certain people -- the world we will be in will be a world, not in which everyone labels themselves atheist. It's where people cease to pretend to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about.
Sam Harris: And the analogy that I used in my talk was to racism, and I think that's appropriate. We don't label ourselves "non-racists." We don't advocate "non-racism" as an ideology. We simply repudiate racism. We've noticed how bankrupt it is intellectually. We notice that the concept of separate races is divisive and scientifically not supportable. And so we make those arguments and we try to extend certain standards of moral decency and common sense, never labeling ourselves. And again, I think that's an analogy that at least seems appropriate to me.
Duncan Crary: Last night, you spoke about how skeptics can be too skeptical for their own good. You talked about the benefits of meditation and extended periods of contemplation. So I'd like to take that topic a little further with religion itself as an organization. Are there aspects of organized religion that you see have maybe a secular value to them? Should atheists focus on destroying religion or reforming religion?
Sam Harris: Well I don't think it's so much a matter of reforming. I am of the "destroy religion" camp. But we have to recognize that there are certain features of human experience that are not going away, and many of them are desirable features. The fact that people can transform their lives, the fact that they can become more compassionate, the fact that they can have even self-transcending experiences; much of this is only described in our religious traditions.
Sam Harris: Religion has been the only game in town if you want to become like Jesus, whoever Jesus actually was, if you want to radically transform your relationship to other people. Religion, with more or less clarity, testifies to the possibility of self-transformation. Then it brings in a lot of Iron-age mythology and superstition and pseudo-science.
Sam Harris: So I think we just have to recognize that as atheists we give people the sense the we're not open to the idea that people can never have extraordinary experiences that are important that are not merely a matter of understanding the world factually better. So we have to somehow conserve the data of human experience in that way and develop a scientific language for talking about what I, unfortunately, have no better words for and call "mysticism or spirituality."
Duncan Crary: Do you plan to continue to refer to yourself out of convenience as an atheist and do you prefer a term -- last night you said maybe "humanist" is a better term. Did you have any intentions for the future?
Sam Harris: Occasionally it becomes too onerous to keep fighting off the word and I answer, when called, to "atheist" or "secularist" or "rationalist." But for the most part I point out the liability of using a label. And when someone asks me "Are you an atheist?" I point out that we're both atheist with respect to Zeus and we don't have a label to describe that lack of belief.
Sam Harris: Ultimately I think we have to instruct people who think that atheism is a worldview that it's not. That it's really a word almost without content. It's simply -- atheism is nothing more, and as I wrote this in
Letter to A Christian Nation, to my mind, it's nothing more than the sounds people make when in the presence of unjustified religious dogma. You just repudiate it. You say, "Well there's no good evidence for the Bible being the perfect work of the creator of the universe." That is atheism, but it's really just reason in action.
Duncan Crary: Sam Harris, thanks for taking the time to speak with me today.
Sam Harris: Pleasure to meet you.
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Jes Constantine: That was Duncan interviewing Sam Harris. If you'd like to read a full version of his talk at the
Atheist International Alliance conference, you can get it from
SamHarrris.org.
Duncan Crary (co-host): Hey Jes, you know what? I've got to tell you. I didn't get a chance to tell Sam Harris this, but the second part of his talk focused on meditation and he told the entire crowd about the values of just clearing your mind. He was saying, like, "For example, if I asked this entire room to just clear your mind, you know, you probably couldn't do it." Do you know I tried it? And do you know all I could think of during that?
Jes Constantine: Let's see... I give up, Duncan. What did you think of?
Duncan Crary: The Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.
Jes Constantine: Obviously. [laughs] From the
Ghostbusters?
Duncan Crary: [laughs] Yeah.
Jes Constantine: You would.
Duncan Crary: First thing in my mind.
Jes Constantine: I think I know what you're talking about.
[audio clip from the
Ghostbusters movie, including Dan Aykroyd fearfully identifying the Stay-Puft marshmallow man. ]
Duncan Crary: So basically if Sam Harris were the god Gozer, I would have chosen the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man to destroy the Atheist Alliance conference.
[laughter]
Jes Constantine: All right. Well, up next we've got Daniel Dennett, who is the author of
Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon and
Darwin's Dangerous Idea.
Duncan Crary: I asked Daniel Dennett for his reactions to Sam Harris' talk.
Daniel Dennett
Duncan Crary (interview):Daniel Dennett, I think one of the most newsworthy aspects of the conference so far were some comments by Sam Harris last night. What are your general reactions to what Mr. Harris had to say?
Daniel Dennett: Well I think Sam is right that the term "atheist" is a risky term in some ways because it minimizes and marginalizes what the real issue is, which is irrationality and just a failure to respect reason. Belief in God is just one aspect of that. And so if the only thing that people think they have to deal with is this question of whether we believe there exists a God, then we lose ground on that.
Daniel Dennett: On the other hand, we do need labels. We need some terms to describe ourselves. And I think that "atheist" is a good term and we ought to work to rehabilitate the term in the eyes of many, along with other terms.
Daniel Dennett: I think that he's right that we should not just brandish the label as if that were the banner that we march under. That would be to play into their hands.
Duncan Crary: Do you think that religion needs to be destroyed or eliminated, or does religion need to be reformed?
Daniel Dennett: I think that there's no practical chance of destroying or eliminating religion. I think that we should think of this actually in an evolutionary perspective and think of it as we want to evolve avirulent varieties, we want to have the toxicity of religion devolve away. And we know that this works. I mean, epidemiology has got good models of how you encourage the evolution of avirulence. And we're much better off of we recognize that these organizations are not going to be exterminated, they're going to be adjusted and encouraged to move in directions that are socially benign.
Duncan Crary: Daniel Dennett, thanks a lot for taking the time to speak with me.
Daniel Dennett: Oh, You're very welcome. Thank you.
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Jes Constantine: That was Daniel Dennett, Tufts University professor of philosophy. Next we have Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion and The Selfish Gene. Dawkins holds a chair for the public understanding of science at Oxford University. You know him, you love him; he's even been a character on "South Park."
Richard Dawkins
Duncan Crary (interview): Professor Dawkins, I think some of the most provocative comments so far (at the conference) were made by Mr. Sam Harris last night. He was talking about the term "atheist" and how he adopted the term sort of by circumstance and that he would prefer not to be called an atheist. Do you have any reaction to some of his comments?
Richard Dawkins: There are many people who object to the word "atheist" because they think it's provocative and puts people's backs up. And I think that's not what he was really talking about, or only very slightly. I think he was sort of saying that if you use the word "atheist" you play into their hands in a way, and a better way to do it is to pick off, as it were, with sniper fire, particular issues of irrationality rather than say "I'm an atheist and I'm against all religion."
Richard Dawkins: It's a better political tactic maybe to say this particular thing is irrational -- opposition to stem cell research is irrational, opposition to early-term abortion is irrational, creationism is irrational, "intelligent design" is irrational -- go for each individual one, picking them off, rather than say, "I'm an atheist," which then leaves you vulnerable to having to defend everybody who has ever been an atheist or whatever it might be.
Richard Dawkins: So, that's different from saying that the word "atheism" is provocative and defensive. And I think he was making a very interesting point, and I'm still thinking about my reaction to it.
Duncan Crary: Mr. Harris made some comments about organized atheism and the atheist movement itself. What do you feel about the value of organized atheism, and here you are speaking at the Atheist Alliance International. Did you feel that these organizations have a value to society and rationality?
Richard Dawkins: Yes. I think reluctantly we have to admit that they do. Especially in America we are in a situation where we do need some organization. And I look forward to a time, as Sam Harris does, when that kind of organization will no longer be necessary. And, as he said, none of us call ourselves a-racists. Maybe in apartheid South Africa it would have been necessary to do that, and the time has now come in South Africa where it's no longer necessary. But let's hope the time does come when it's no longer necessary to bother to call yourself an atheist, anymore than now days we call ourselves a-Thorists and a-Zeusists.
Duncan Crary: We couldn't hear your whole talk down here in the pressroom. But I understand you addressed some comments made by Greg Epstein, the Humanist chaplain at Harvard -- that some of the ways that people refer to you and some of your peers…The '"New Atheists"' is a term...Let me just begin with that, do you like the term '"New Atheists"'? Where did that come from?
Richard Dawkins: Well one -- I don't know from where it comes from, and once again I think it's something that we reluctantly have to live with and it's probably a pretty good public relations, consciousness raising term. So I am not fighting against it.
Duncan Crary: So to follow up that--some of Epstein's work, he is the Humanist Chaplin at Harvard....
Richard Dawkins: I didn't actually give him very much -- I mean I didn't mention him by name, I don't think, maybe I had his name on a slide. And it was more, just, a generic look at some of the objections that people have raised like, "Why are you so strident?" And the answer is, "We're not". We only seem strident because people have got used to the idea that religion gets a free pass, that you don't criticize religion, that even the very slightest criticism -- something that wouldn't even be noticed in political discourse.
Richard Dawkins: For example, if you're criticizing Bush, say, nobody would notice it and nobody would dream to call it strident. But if you say something even the tiniest bit negative about religion, people think it's strident and shrill. The other thing, of course, is that many people just simply haven't read the book; I mean they have read the title or read what somebody else has said about it.
Duncan Crary: So to follow up on that line, though, what this chaplain is doing at Harvard is trying to incorporate some of the aspects of organized religion, the singing and almost the rhetoric, you know? The main question is do you think that religion needs to be eliminated and replaced with atheism? Or do you think religion should be reformed to the point, where say it is in Europe-- some of the Church of England … it's not even clear that they're necessarily believers?
Richard Dawkins: I'm not myself going to get involved in chanting, singing, rituals and things like that. I think it's rather pathetic if people need that. I mean, maybe in special cases like funerals or marriages one needs something, but you can do that with poetry you can do that with music.
Richard Dawkins: I'm not a great fan of somebody who tries to cozy up to liberal rabbis and things, and sort of Church of England vicar's and sort of say,"So it doesn't really matter whether we actually believe in God. What matters is we're all good pals", and things like that. I think it's actually is a genuinely important question whether there is as a matter of fact a God. And to me that's a big question. To other people it's clearly a rather subsidiary question to whether everybody is happy and jolly together.
Duncan Crary: You made the announcement in your talk yesterday that the Richard Dawkins Foundation now has charitable status in the United States and in Britain. And I would just like to ask you what's next for the foundation?
Richard Dawkins: Well it's a great milestone for us. It's been about 18 months of trying to get charitable status, which must be a record, I think. We've done it in both countries because the charitable tax laws are quite different in the two countries, and so now it should be easy by legal means to transfer money from one to the other. So for example, somebody in America wants to give money to a charity in Britain, they can do so, by the sort of conduit provided by our two charities in a tax sufficient way.
Richard Dawkins: Similarly, if a donor in Britain wants to give money to an American charity -- which I by the way have often done in the past, and it's been terribly difficult. I mean when I wanted to give some money to the James Randi Foundation, for example, I had to jump through all kinds of hoops in order to do it in a tax efficient way.
Richard Dawkins: So one of the things my foundation is going to do, with its dual status on the opposites sides of the Atlantic is make that kind of thing easier. So we'll be giving money -- if we raise money, we will be giving money to other charities that are doing good things, the things like disaster relief and famine relief that kind of thing. I think many would-be donors are reluctant to give money if they think it might fall in to the hands of missionaries, which it often does.
Richard Dawkins: And so, one of the things we hope to do is maintain a sort of database, of charities, which are certified clean of missionaries and so encourage people to give, via us, to them.
Richard Dawkins: We're also running a website which contains a lot of information. You may have seen it. The foundation website is RichardDawkinsFoundation.org. We have another website. RichardDawkins.net which is not officially part of the foundation, and probably better not be, I think.
Duncan Crary: Where I work, the Institute for Humanist Studies, we're about to award -- we're going to pass the $1 million mark for grants given away to charitable organizations throughout the world. I came across a statistic though. In the U.S., last year $97 billion -- Americans gave $97 billion to religion. It was astounding.
I guess this isn't so much of a question, but congratulations for your work.
Richard Dawkins: I've seen pie charts of that, which are most astonishing. I suppose it's mostly tithes, isn't it? They give 10 percent of their income to people like Ted Haggard. That's what swells those figures. Yes, it's very sad.
Duncan Crary: Last night you -- I think it was yesterday, you mentioned that you might be working on a children's book in the future. Would you care to share any more information about that?
Richard Dawkins: I haven't started it, and I haven't really given much thought to what it might consist of. I do think that might be the next logical step.
Duncan Crary: Final question. You've been interviewed hundreds, maybe thousands of times. Is there something that reporters do not ask you that you wish they would? Is there something that you want to talk about that people just don't -- they pigeonhole you.
Richard Dawkins: I should have been given notice of that question. I certainly get asked the same thing very, very many times. You haven't asked the same thing, actually. So, thank you very much for that.
Richard Dawkins: No, I have to have notice of that question. I can't think of anything that I haven't been asked that I should have been.
Duncan Crary: Professor Dawkins, it's been a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for granting this interview.
Richard Dawkins: Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure for me, too.
[classical music]
Pastor Deacon Fred: This is Pastor Deacon Fred from the Landover Baptist Church, and you're listening to the Humanist Network News. I'll tell you what. You either shut this thing off right now or you're going to burn in hell.
Duncan Crary: We'll be hearing from that man later on in our show. Before that we were listening to my interview with Professor Richard Dawkins. For more information about Professor Dawkins and his foundation, you can visit RichardDawkinsFoundation.org or also visit RichardDawkins.net..
During the interview, Professor Dawkins said that he wasn't a big fan of ceremonies. However, he did participate in a humanist naming ceremony of the children of Matt Cherry, the executive director of the Institute for Humanist Studies. That was Sunday at the AAI conference, and you can read about that in the Washington Post/Newsweek blog, which is called "On Faith."
Jes Constantine: So, Duncan, were people mowing you down trying to get to Dawkins, or what?
Duncan Crary: Yes, they were. Picture William Shatner at a Star Trek convention. I'm throwing elbows with these guys. Everybody who has a blog was trying to get to them. I was just trying to play it cool and stay back. There was a lot of waiting around.
Didn't get the chance to interview Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I did rub elbows with a lot of really big scary looking bodyguards.
Duncan Crary: I had to twice make arrangements to interview Christopher Hitchens. The first time, I found him down in the bar where I had retreated and he agreed to do the interview in five minutes, and then I got bumped by...
Announcer: This morning in Virginia a large convention of atheists has gathered. Men, women, children, who all proclaim that God does not exist. Here's ABC's Liz Marlantes.
Duncan Crary: Jes is bumping me right now by ABC World News. Somehow they were able to cut the line and get Hitchens. I don't know. Humanist Network News... ABC World News. Whatever. Good Morning America.
Anyway, I finally did catch up with Christopher Hitchens in the bar Saturday night. He agreed to do the interview and to speak over the Muzak in the background.
Christopher Hitchens
Christopher Hitchens: I know it's very unsatisfactory. I believe that the confrontation with the term is inescapable. In other words, one is going to be asked, either out of curiosity or out of hostility, "Are you an atheist?"
Christopher Hitchens: The term has a common understanding that's shared by a very, very large number of speakers of English and other languages too. Where to say "yes" means, "I do not believe in a Creator God or an Intervening God." And thus, I think it's idle to expect that one can dodge the question as it will be presented in that form.
Christopher Hitchens: I'm perfectly content to say, "Yes," to that question in whatever tone of voice it is asked of me. I will add that in fact I'm an anti-theist. I don't just disbelieve in these propositions but I think that the proposition is a horrible one. I'm glad it isn't true and glad there is no evidence for it. But I don't do this for purposes of spin or evasion, and I think any attempt to duck the question is doomed.
Duncan Crary: Your books and the books of your peers, who are featured in this conference, have probably done more to raise consciousness for the issues of atheism than atheist organizations; I have to admit. And I want to know your opinion of organized atheism. What are your thoughts about conferences like this and groups like Atheists Alliance International?
Christopher Hitchens: I have to say personally that I don't feel the need of a support group of any kind -- I never have. I never joined the previous American atheist organization of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, which I thought from the evidence of some of its publications had a slightly cultish aspect to it. But I think it is a wholesome thing that the resonance of the word "atheist" now attaches itself to names like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, than with Madalyn Murray O'Hair. That is a qualitative step forward, but I could go from one year into the next without ever attending a conference of like-minded people.
Christopher Hitchens: In the opening of my book, I make a very sharp point about this to say that it is one of the distinctions of our belief that it doesn't require continual reinforcement, ceremonial solidarity. You recognize a fellow unbeliever when you meet them, wherever they are, whatever time of day it is. You don't require getting together and chant what you don't believe, and that distinction is important to me in other ways too.
Duncan Crary: Do you think some people are too skeptical for their own good?
Christopher Hitchens: No, I think something else, which is there is a tendency -- that I didn't see much this weekend, but I know there is a tendency -- for unbelievers to regard their own civil rights as a problem. Now for me, it's not a civil rights question. We're arguing for unbelief against theocracy and against superstition. We can expect to be disliked for it, or feared sometimes, or despised; that's if you like, part of it. We are not an oppressed minority and shouldn't act with self-pity or complaint as if we were.
Christopher Hitchens: Obviously, if there's a case in even a small county of a remote state, where someone might have to challenge -- there are local laws sometimes that say that those who won't swear on the Bible can't be appointed to office. That's flat out unconstitutional. But it would be for believers, I should have thought, to take that up and say the Constitution quite explicitly forbids a religious test for public office. It shouldn't be our complaint that we are victims.
Duncan Crary: Christopher Hitchens, thank you for taking the time to speak with me.
Christopher Hitchens: A pleasure, thank you for asking.
[music]
Duncan Crary (co-host): You're listening to the Humanist Network News. I'm your host Duncan Crary.
Jes Constantine: And I'm your host, Jes Constantine.
Duncan Crary: That was my interview with Christopher Hitchens. Now during the Atheist Alliance International Conference, Christopher Hitchens did make some controversial remarks about the Iraq War and about invading Iran. I think a week later, at the Freedom From Religion Foundation Conference, Hitchens echoed those remarks and took them up a notch, speaking about invading Iran and killing Muslims.
Jes Constantine: It's probably one of the reasons why Salman Rushdie, at his talk at the New Humanist Conference, said that, "I love him. He's one of my friends, but I don't agree with a lot of what he says."
Duncan Crary: The blogosphere is abuzz with commentary. I wasn't there. So, citizen journalists, you can do your own research.
Jes Constantine: Duncan, we've heard from Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens about their reactions to Harris' talk. What did some of the other conference goers have to say?
Duncan Crary: Well there was one woman who before his talk was telling me what a huge fan of Sam Harris she was, and after the talk, she vowed to throw his books into the garbage.
Jes Constantine: Interesting. That sounds kind of familiar doesn't it?
Duncan Crary: Yeah, it sounds a little bit like those fundamentalist Christians who go around burning books and drive over rap CDs with bulldozers. Anyway, Ellen Johnson, the president of American Atheists published her formal response to Sam Harris' talk in the Humanist Network News e-zine, Humanistnetworknews.org. One of the first people to jump up during Sam Harris' talk and comment was Kelly "M" (Kelly O'Connor) from the Rational Response Squad. This is the group famous for the Blasphemy Challenge on YouTube and also for debating Kirk Cameron of "The Way of the Master" on "Dateline NBC." I talked to Brian and Kelly on Saturday.
Rational Response Squad
Duncan Crary (interview): I'm with Brian "Sapient" and Kelly "M" of the Rational Response Squad and you've been here for the Atheist Alliance International Conference. I'd like to ask you your reactions to Sam Harris' talk. Kelly what is your reaction to Sam Harris' statement about using the term "atheist."
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: My first reaction was please shut-up so I can, like, ask you this question right now. Unfortunately I had to wait until he was done. But, I even specifically asked him -- why, while I agree with his concepts and the idea that having a label for the non-belief in a particular thing really should be almost silly.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: And I mean he used examples such as racism and you don't have to call yourself a-racist or anti-racist and atheism should be no difference. At the same time, I pointed out to him, every movement at some point in time goes through this period of change where people who are opposed to that kind of belief system or practice or whatever it is, have to come out and assert themselves.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: They've always had to take the negative stance. Like in the 20's it was prohibition or the abolitionist during slavery. The Civil Rights movement or whatever the deal is, essentially to get to the place where atheism is a word that we don't need to use anymore. We need to identify ourselves as that and coalesce into a movement that is capable of affecting that kind of change.
Duncan Crary: Brian, do you have any reactions you'd like to share?
Brian "Sapient" I think, obviously, that basically he was saying we shouldn't use the word atheist. I think -- and I was just using black as an example of Greydon Square, a rapper who is wearing a shirt that says "I'm the black Carl Sagan." There's a negative stigma attached to that word, just as there is a negative stigma attached to that word atheist. Yet black people embrace the word and don't care because it factually represents who they are. So if you are a non-believer, atheist actually represents who you are.
Brian "Sapient" I worry that we end up segmenting ourselves into 30 different definable terms. I don't think Christians or Muslims hate us because of the word atheist. I think they hate us because of what we believe. When they figure out that humanist means atheist, or Bright means atheist -- I recognize it doesn't exactly mean that, but at the core, that's generally what it is. When they figure that out, they start to have a negative reaction to it.
Brian "Sapient" The first time searching online you start seeing people talking about agnostics with this negative stigma. The same way they've used the word atheist as a slur for a long time. I'm starting to see it with agnostic. Now agnostic is being hated on.
Brian "Sapient" Now I think we run the risk of being recognized as intellectually dishonest if we pull that sort of routine. How can you get somebody to change or abandon their entire belief system? What they were raised and grown up and indoctrinated into if at some point, any point, they suspect you of being intellectually dishonest with them.
Duncan Crary: That raises an interesting question because Sam Harris told me -- I don't know if he said it in his talk -- he appreciates the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Science and Reason. It's not the "Richard Dawkins Foundation for Atheism." He was advocating for using words like reason and rationality.
Duncan Crary: You're the Rational Response Squad so you're one of the few groups that wouldn't have to order new business cards, [laughs] if Harris convinced you. Do you feel you might be corrupting --people might figure out ration(al) and reason are code words for atheism.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: Well yes, essentially it will vilify the entire English language. The more words we use to define ourselves to avoid using the big bad A-word, they'll just hate more words. It would be silly.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: Actually Sam Harris has said publicly that he supports us (the Rational Response Squad) as an organization. We always like to tell people that even though we might fight most against religion, it's only because religion is probably the most dangerous meme floating around in society, and it's also the most prevalent. The thing that we're really opposed to is the lack of rationality, reason, and critical thinking that leads people to religion, and that really what we want to do is promote that.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: As far as that goes, we're right in line with what he's saying, but I'm not going to abandon the use of the word "atheist" because it might make people not like me.
Brian "Sapient" You know, Duncan, I didn't even think about it until you just said it. You actually just made my point for me, and actually debunked Harris' argument. I've heard "rational" used as a slur against us, and so...
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: [mocking] You're so rational!
Brian "Sapient" Yeah. I never really put it together until now, until you just said that. It really happened. I can't count how many times or the ways, really. I might go back and check. I really don't think it's the word that we use to call ourselves. I think the most important thing is that...
Brian "Sapient" I think it's really a shame. I have a feeling... You saw some polls. There was a poll a while ago that 80 percent of Americans doubt the literal existence of a God. That would mean, if that's true, that would make 80 percent of our American population agnostic or atheist or both. Right? And so it's like we're so segmented into all these different groups. We might already be the majority, we just don't even know it because we have 50 names for who we are.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: I'm not an atheist, I'm a Bright! I'm a humanist! I'm a free thinker!
Brian "Sapient" We heard... What was her name last night? Conscientious Evolutioner? What did she call herself?
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: Evolutionary con... I don't even remember.
Brian "Sapient" What was her name? What was her name?
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: Like Conscious Evolutionist or some shit? I think it was Conscious Evolutionist or some...
Brian "Sapient" She's like, if somebody asked her if she believed in God, I don't even remember how stupid it was. It was just like, "No, I'm Consciousness Evolutioner." It's like, "What? What are you?"
Duncan Crary: Sam Harris is on his way up here right now to speak with you, so I'm going to wrap this up. Can you give me a little preview of what you expect to talk with Sam Harris about?
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: Probably exactly what we just talked to you about.
Brian "Sapient" Yeah, I'm sure we'll talk about this. At the core, we agree with most everything that Sam says. The most important thing is to speak out, and that's really the most important thing. If some people can't handle the usage of a word, then yeah. I think it's important as well, but it's not as important. Sam's obviously an extremely important figure, and we hope to have a bunch of things that we agree on, which we already know. Sam supports us, and we support him.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: We like to focus more on the points on which we agree than the ones on which we disagree. For example, we had Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins both up here earlier today. Personally, we both dislike the term "Bright." Whatever. That's their thing. They can have their thing and we have our thing, but the fact is that we all want to end religion. So that's what we really want to get together with these people to do.
Duncan Crary: Thanks a lot for taking the time to speak with me.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: You're welcome.
Brian "Sapient" Can I say one thing?
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: Humanists!
Brian "Sapient" I just want to say one thing to all the humanists out there.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: You're an atheist. Just deal with it!
Brian "Sapient" Seriously. We support your right to start the Chickenshit Atheist Group of America. We hope you support our right to start the Rational Response Squad. If you want to come to us with a website which Kelly is thinking about starting first as a parody site called "The Chickenshit Atheists of America." If you want to start it, we will gladly support you and link to it as long as you support us for speaking out loudly and boldly.
Kelly "M"/Kelly O'Connor: [giggles] Yeah.
Brian "Sapient" OK. Thanks a lot.
[music]
Jes Constantine: Well, I'm sure we've all heard of the Rational Responder's Blasphemy Challenge, where they're looking for YouTube videos of folks denying the Holy Spirit. You can get more information about that at RationalResponders.com.
It looks like we've got yet another challenge from the Rational Responders. What do you think?
Duncan Crary: A little glove slapping, I think, is going on.
Jes Constantine: So listeners, give us a call at 1-877-659-1515. That's our new toll-free number. And tell us what you think.
Duncan Crary: Well, we've heard from the atheist reaction to Sam Harris's talk and the conference. Now we are going to hear from a religious attendee at the conference. This man claims to represent the largest, most powerful assembly of worthwhile people ever to exist.
[laughter]
Pastor Deacon Fred
Duncan Crary (interview): Pastor Deacon Fred, the High Minister of the Landover Baptist Church, what brings you to the Atheist Alliance Conference?
Pastor Deacon Fred: Well, I am here because I heard they were holding their convention in Crystal Meth City and I couldn't resist, you see, I am always up for a challenge. And like anything else, my friends will tell you, I can sell a sin to Satan. That's why I am here. I heard also from Creation Science researchers at Landover Baptist Home for the Demonically Possessed, after they carefully examined the entrails of an unblemished goat, told me that there is a new virus on the loose, a deadly virus. And it's called atheism. And it is corrupting our country. And like everything unholy, it's coming from the Brits, from overseas, the same tea-sipping nancy boys that brought us Andrew Lloyd Webber and his pack of prancing homosexual cats.
Duncan Crary: Have you had a chance to speak with Professor Dawkins or Mr. Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens?
Pastor Deacon Fred: I have supped with the sinners. I have spoken with them. And listened to their so-called intellectual rigmarole. My opinion is these folk read too many books. There is only one book you need read and that is the Holy Bible, King James 1611, 10 pound version. The only thing that is going to knock any sense into Richard Dawkins is if somebody whacks him up the side of the head with a bible -- get the demons out of there. I don't know what they teach those folks down there in those English schools. Harry Potter! You know, the only thing missing from the Harry Potter book, come to think of it, is sodomy. A little light sodomy! Because sodomy in England is just as common as a handshake is in the United States. Oh, Glory.
Duncan Crary: Have you converted any, have you saved any souls?
Pastor Deacon Fred: Well, this fellow Sam Harris opened the hearts and minds of some folks here so I used that as an opportunity to hone in on the sinners. Oh yes, any time they are vulnerable, I bring the Holy Spirit and the little Baby Jesus and I just get right in their faces and I say, "Did you know that Jesus loves you?", and they say well, they don't believe in Jesus. I said, "He loves you, but if you don't love him back, well, He is going to fry your good-for-nothing unsaved ass in the eternal hellfire!"
Duncan Crary: Would you like to say a prayer for the listeners of the Humanist Network News. Perhaps you will reach a few of them?
Pastor Deacon Fred: Yes. Lord, thank you for not killing the members of the Humanist Network News network and flinging their lifeless corpses into the flames of the sadistic hell you created for everyone who doesn't flatter you. Amen.
Duncan Crary: Amen.
[singing & Music: "And the Skeptic that's in me / doesn't believe in you…"]
Singer: Hi! This is Melanie, from the band Sirsy. You're listening to Humanist Network News.
Jes Constantine: I'm your host, Jes Constantine.
Duncan Crary: And I'm your host, Duncan Crary. The band, Sirsy, has followed many acts but I am not sure if they have followed any act quite like that one: Pastor Deacon Fred of the Landover Baptist Church. You can learn more about that congregation at LandoverBaptist.org.
Jes Constantine: Newsflash. Fred.
[laughter]
Jes Constantine: Dumbledore is gay. J.K. Rowling officially outed him.
Duncan Crary: Yes, so we can expect a little sodomy in Harry Potter and the Secret Chalice Chamber, number 12.
[laughter]
[Back to Transcript Table of Contents]
Duncan Crary: Well, last month we had a question, posed by Tom, for Sweet Reason, about coming out as an atheist. Tom is...
Jes Constantine: ...comes from the softer side of the Rational Responders, if you will.
Duncan Crary: And Molleen Matsumura visited the
Humanist Center in Albany, so here she is.
Duncan Crary (interview): I am here with Molleen Matsumura, the voice of "Sweet Reason", the famous humanist advice columnist. Molleen, thank you so much for joining us at the Humanist Center, in Albany, New York.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": I am really glad to be here. You have even got good tea.
Duncan Crary: Yeah, well we have got good tea, but I thought you were going to bring the California sunshine.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": Too bad!
Duncan Crary: So Molleen, last month we aired a question from a young man named Tom about coming out as an atheist. He had a question for you about how to come out to his family and loved ones and let them know that he is an atheist. And he is concerned about doing that the proper way.
Tom (recording): What would be the best way to give somebody a different feeling about atheists, or humanists. How do you sort of come in acknowledging that there's probably a very strong reaction that will occur at the dropping of that word? How can you numb that down a bit, dumb it down a little bit?
Duncan Crary: Do you have any advice for Tom?
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": Yeah, I've been thinking about it, and the advice sort of breaks out like a newspaper column -- there's a when, a who, and a what. And "the when" is the sooner the better, I think, for Tom, because the
Rational Response Squad is so public. They've been on TV; they're all over the Internet. Someone in his family is going to find out sooner or later, and it's better if they hear it from him.
Duncan Crary: So, Molleen, this might be a dumb question, but what
is the danger of having one of Tom's loved ones find out the he's an atheist--say on
Dateline NBC or something?
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": Because the way they hear it from anyone else is going to be less gentle than the way they would hear it from him. It's going to come as a shock, and then he's going to have to deal with "Why didn't you tell me?"
Duncan Crary: Yeah. OK. So, what's part two?
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": Well, part two is who to tell. In any family there are people who are going to have different reactions. You learn to know who you should tell your secret to, whatever it is -- you're gay, you've been dating someone of a different ethnic group, you like dogs in a cat-loving family.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": There are some people who are more sympathetic and are prepared to run interference for you with the rest of the family. It might be your mother, who is calmer than your father, or one sibling who's more supportive than another who is always picking on you.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": So if he thinks about who would listen most just because they love him, that's where to start. And he can even say to them, "I'm starting with you because I'm trying to figure out how to deal with the rest of the family."
Duncan Crary: OK, Well, Tom did speak with us about his
atheist volunteers project, and I was wondering if that maybe plays into part three of your advice.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": Duncan, you read my mind.
Duncan Crary: Well, I've been reading your columns long enough to know maybe where you're going.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": Yeah. Well, I think that people in his family are probably just like the rest of the public -- they've heard all kinds of things about atheists. Besides which, if they find out about the
Rational Responders, the Rational Responders don't pull any punches in their atheism. So they might have all those negative perceptions that Tom is worried about.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": But if he begins by saying "Yeah, I've been doing some volunteer work lately. I'm trying to get people to donate blood." That's one of the
Rational Responders' projects. Eventually the person, we hope, the chosen person who understands him, will say, "Well, what's the name of it?" And then Tom says, "Sit down first." And he says, "Well, it's
Atheist Volunteers. I felt it was about time that people around us understood that we're really good people." Then he's set the tone of the conversation already.
Duncan Crary: Yeah. I think that's wonderful advice, Molleen. Let me ask you some advice for maybe some of the other people who listened to Tom's question and interview, who are upset that he's hiding in the closet with his atheism or that he's said that he's kind of playing the role of Clark Kent in a way -- you know, super-atheist volunteer by night and mild-mannered Tom by day. What's your advice to the listeners who are angry that there are atheists in the closet?
Caller (recorded): Hello, my name is John Vanderplum. I'm an atheist in Chicago. I wanted to express my disappointment in Tom on the September program. It seems that he's trying to help the world see atheists as honest people while not being honest with himself and with his loved ones.
Caller (recorded): This distresses me because it exemplifies the perception that atheism is bad behavior. That's not necessarily the message that you want to be sending out to the people you are trying to get to volunteer for your causes.
Caller (recorded): The truth is: it's not a hobby. The humanist movement works best as a civil rights issue, not as an anti-establishment stance. That's just my take on it.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": Help them out. If you're outspoken already, then present a nice public face, or at least an honest one. There are lots of reasons people have to be in the closet, and you can't judge them. They might have a job to protect, there might be... The thing that comes to my mind as a mother is that they don't want rocks thrown at their kids at school.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": So, when you don't know the circumstances of another person's life you can't really say what they should do, but you can make it easier for them to do what you think they should do.
Duncan Crary: Well, Molleen Matsumura--Sweet Reason. It's always sound, compassionate advice. Thank you so much for speaking with me today.
Molleen Matsumara, a.k.a "Sweet Reason": It was my pleasure, Duncan.
[music]
Jes Constantine: That was Molleen Matsumura, a.k.a. "Sweet Reason."
Duncan Crary: A.k.a. Jes' grandmother.
[laughter]
Jes Constantine: I don't know. Every time I hear her voice, Duncan, it just reminds me of my grandmother.
Duncan Crary: Jes was very eager to hug Molleen.
Jes Constantine: I really enjoyed meeting her.
Duncan Crary: You can read Molleen Matsumura's humanist advice column--Sweet Reason--in the Humanist Network News ezine at
HumanistNetworkNews.org.
Jes Constantine: You can leave your own question for Sweet Reason at our toll-free listener comment line -- (877) 659-1515.
Duncan Crary: And don't forget to call us and tell us what you think about this program.
Jes Constantine: That's right. You can look for transcripts and show notes from previous episodes at
HumanistStudies.org/podcast.
Duncan Crary: (The use of) our
theme music was generously donated by Holly Near. You can learn more about her at
HollyNear.com.
Jes Constantine: And before we forget, happy Halloween, right?
Duncan Crary: Happy Halloween, folks. Don't let the fundamentalists or the witches scare you from having a good time.
Jes Constantine: We're going to take the show out with a song by
Sirsy, called "Oh! Billy."
[music]
Duncan Crary: I'm your host, Duncan Crary.
Jes Constantine: And I'm your host, Jes Constantine.
Duncan Crary: Thanks for listening.
[music]
Announcer: The
Humanist Network News podcast is made possible by the Institute for Humanist Studies, a non-profit think-tank that promotes the philosophy of humanism.
[music]
[Back to Transcript Table of Contents]
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