Radio Announcer: News, views, and interview. From the big news stories taking place here or on the other side of the world, this is the Garry Doyle -- heard weekdays from noon to three, and only on 570 News. Here's Garry.
Garry Doyle: It is it 2:34, Wednesday afternoon. One of the things that we try to do with this show is bring you different perspectives and talk to different people that have different ideas from -- well, I was going to say the majority, but I don't know if that's the case or not because joining us now is Matt Cherry, who's the executive director for the Institute for Humanist Studies. And he's also the president of the United Nations Committee on Freedom of Religion or Belief. So, I find it kind of interesting Matt. First of all, let's say thanks for taking the time today. We appreciate getting a chance to talk to you.
Matt Cherry: Thanks Garry, thanks for having me on your show.
Garry Doyle: I find interesting that your name comes up in an article that says, "In Defense of the Pope."
Matt Cherry: Right, I usually criticize the Pope...
Garry Doyle: Yeah.
Matt Cherry:...as atheist and a humanist. But, I think the recent controversy has really taken a wrong turn. People are criticizing the Pope for truth of words more than they're condemning the Muslim rabble rousers who are actually using violence.
Garry Doyle: So, the Pope, who is saying he was quoting a medieval document -- that he was trying to make his point around that. I don't know if he's dodging it or not at that point.
Matt Cherry: I think he was using a quote, it wasn't his own words. But I think he was a little foolish to use such a quote because he must have realized it would be taken out of context. He represents a major religion with a history of religious conflict with Islam, so he should choose his words very carefully. But having said that, he has a right to say whatever he wants. The people who are attacking him seem to be denying his right to freedom of speech.
Garry Doyle: See, that's the part I thought was kind of interesting from your perspective. But that's good to see. For me, it's good to see that you're prepared to live out your position.
Matt Cherry: Absolutely. As a non-religious person I still work to defend the rights of the religious because if people aren't free to express their own beliefs or criticize beliefs then none of us really have true freedom of religion or belief.
Garry Doyle: What did the Pope do wrong in your estimation then? Was it just clumsy?
Matt Cherry: Yeah, it was just clumsy. I think he has the right to say it. It's actually an interesting talk he gave. No one seems to have noticed that the Pope seems to have spent more of his lecture criticizing atheism than Islam. But we haven't seen any atheists burning churches in protest.
Garry Doyle: [laughs] You know, you raise a good point there because he was quoting -- I'm trying to remember the guy's name. Paleologus? Is that it?
Matt Cherry: Yes.
Garry Doyle: Emperor Paleologus? That just rolls off the tongue.
Matt Cherry: It does, that well known 13th century Byzantine emperor.
Garry Doyle: You pretty much have to be the Pope to know who that was.
Matt Cherry: Exactly.
Garry Doyle: By picking somebody that is out of the public consciousness, those quotes that were waiting -- as a journalist I think those quotes were waiting to be taken out of context.
Matt Cherry: Yes. He's quoting someone who's actually engaged -- actually for fighting for life against a Muslim empire. Who's obviously very critical and inflammatory in what he says.
Garry Doyle: The quote he used, just to let our audience members who don't know the quote know, from Paleologus: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Matt Cherry: Yes. It's not surprising that a devout Muslims are offended by or outraged by that but we still have to draw a line. You can be outraged but that doesn't give you the right to use violence or threaten violence or go out and kill people or burn churches.
Garry Doyle: But isn't that -- even if we go back to the Danish cartoons that sparked such a controversy, or even after the Pope made these comments, Matt, where there's a member of the Foreign Ministry in Pakistan who said this: "Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant is encouraging violence."
Matt Cherry: First of all, that's laughable.
Garry Doyle: Yes.
Matt Cherry: That you convey, "We're not violent and I'll attack anyone who says we are, " is blatantly contradictory. But it's also arbitrating the worst images of Islam. People complain that Islam has a negative image. Well, the first thing they could do is condemn those Muslims in their own ranks who make such extremists and inflammatory statements.
Garry Doyle: From a humanist perspective, why get involved in this debate?
Matt Cherry: Because humanists believe in an open society where free speech is guaranteed for everyone, including people we disagree with. Because it's really not free speech if you only allow speech from people that you already support or agree with.
Garry Doyle: And I applaud that because I'm a big fan of open debate, whether I believe where you're coming from or not. You know what I mean? This are conversations we should have everyday, not just when something like this happens.
Matt Cherry: Absolutely.
Garry Doyle: Why doesn't that happen?
Matt Cherry: I think there's fear now of actually debating religious ideas. I think there's a growing self-censorship about criticizing extremist religion, particularly Islam but also other branches of extreme religion. You can be Christian, or Jewish, or Hindu and there elements within those faiths who are very intolerant and try censor any criticism of their beliefs.
Garry Doyle: I'm a member of a Christian community, and I like to think we encourage debate about our own faith, because that's how you strengthen it.
Matt Cherry: Yes.
Garry Doyle: That's how you hone it.
Matt Cherry: I agree, and that's actually the Pope's point. He was talking about the importance of using reason as the basis on which different faiths and cultures can have a debate because we also accept the primacy of reason.
Garry Doyle: Matt, why don't we learn more about other religions? Why don't we learn more about humanism? Why don't we go out of our way to understand each other better?
Matt Cherry: I think there's a fear that by exposing people to other ideas it may weaken people's faiths. I would encourage greater understanding of other faiths and other beliefs. I think it's important in today's world because almost every society is multi-faith and multicultural, and we need to understand whatever people are thinking and where they come from.
Garry Doyle: See, and that's a good point. I'm trying to remember if it was last year or the year before that was the first birth statistics. The biggest city around here is Toronto, which is about an hour from here. And I think it was the year before was the first time there were more people living in Toronto that weren't born in Canada than there were people who actually born in Canada. That's how multicultural our biggest city has become.
Matt Cherry: Right, and I think in that context you really need to understand your neighbor's traditions and have a respect for where they're coming from and better knowledge of their beliefs and traditions.
Garry Doyle: Because, you know what? A lot of people -- and we've had callers to this show who have said, "If you're coming from another country to Canada or the United States or wherever, then what you had before wasn't as good as what you want. So why are you holding on to the old ways?"
Matt Cherry: Well, I think one of the attractions of Canada and other Western countries is that they allow you to have a diversity of beliefs. You have to play by the rules of a Western society, which means respecting other people's freedoms and rights, but you do have the right to follow your own beliefs and traditions within that context. And that is one of the reasons people are attracted to open societies.
Garry Doyle: Let me give you a couple minutes, while we got you here. Because the Institute for Humanist Studies -- I got an email from a listener who says she's not even sure what a humanist is.
Matt Cherry: A humanist is someone who is not religious or does not believe in God because still has a moral system -- a moral framework.
Garry Doyle: So you still have your ethics that your live by...
Matt Cherry: Yes.
Garry Doyle: ...but you don't tie them to a deity.
Matt Cherry: Exactly. We don't have a supernatural basis for our morality but we still have moral system and we still believe living a good and fulfilling life without religion.
Garry Doyle: OK, so that's good to know. And your website is, if people want to learn more about you?
Matt Cherry: Our website is
americanhumanist.org.
Garry Doyle: HumanistStudies.org. I'll link that from my show page, so if listeners go on
570News.com, you can click on my show page and you'll find the link there to learn more about Matt Cherry and the Institute for Humanist Studies. Thank you Matt, good to talk to you.
Matt Cherry: Thanks, Garry.
Garry Doyle: Take care. One of the reasons I called Matt today is because I thought it was kind of interesting he was coming out in defense of the Pope and he's an atheist.
My thought first was, "Why would you care what the Pope had to say?" But he's all about tolerance. Here's the quote, "The Pope was making a sincere if somewhat clumsy attempt at dialog with Islam. As a humanist, " he says, "I'm not accustomed to defending the Pope, but I have to say the blame for the violence should be placed squarely on the Muslim extremists, not Benedict."
Matt Cherry says, "Many Muslims are willing to engage in dialog with people of other beliefs, but those who react with violence to criticism of Islam whether its Papal criticism or Danish cartoons are the real enemies of dialog and understanding." And that's just where I trying to go with that conversation, because clearly I'm not a humanist, but he does make a degree of sense -- some of the things that he has been saying.
[song]
Jes Constantine: That was Matt Cherry, executive director for the Institute for Humanist Studies appearing by phone on the Garry Doyle Show on 570 News in Kitchener, Ontario. You can listen to the Garry Doyle Show live from their website
www.570News.com.
Duncan Crary: We have a lot of listeners to this podcast actually in the Kitchener area.
Jes Constantine: That's right.
Duncan Crary: The Society of Ontario Freethinkers, formerly known as the -- take a deep breath -- Kitchener Waterloo Cambridge Guelph Humanists.
Jes Constantine: I can see why they changed their name.
Duncan Crary: I can see why they changed their name, too. [exhales sharply] Anyway, they have our podcast feed listed prominently on the frontpage of their website which I believe we actually host, too, through our
Humanists.Net program.
Jes Constantine: That's right. Nice plug, Duncan.
Duncan Crary: Well, you always get the plug in. I remembered this time. Now, also you may know that if you read the weekly Humanist Network News ezine... I'm waiting for the plug, Jes.
Jes Constantine: HumanistNetworkNews.org.
Duncan Crary: You got it. Yep. If you read our weekly e-zine, you'll know that Doug Thomas, one of our regular columnists, also lives in this area. He's from Elmira, Ontario and he writes a weekly column about humanism from a distinctly Canadian perspective.
Jes Constantine: Nice. So, next we're going to play an interview that we recorded last week with Derek Araujo when he was visiting our
Humanist Center here in Albany, N.Y., where this podcast is actually recorded.
Derek Araujo is an attorney practicing in New York City, and in 2004 he graduated cum laude from Harvard Law School. While there he was the senior editor of the Civil Rights Civil Liberties Law Review. And in 1999, he graduated magnum cum laude from Harvard College, where he was the founding president for the Campus Free Thought Alliance. That's a distinguished fellow right there, Duncan.
Duncan Crary (as co-host): It is. When did we record Derek? Last Friday?
Jes Constantine: Last Friday. That's right.
Duncan Crary (as interviewer): I understand you're interested in doing some pro bono work for humanists', atheists' civil right litigation. Could you explain to me a little bit about what type of cases you might be working on?
Derek Araujo: Absolutely. Well, I should say that I'm affiliated, at this point, with both the
American Humanist Association's legal center in Washington D.C. as well as the
Center for Inquiry's First Amendment taskforce. And I'm very interested in doing work to protect the erosion of the wall of separation of church and state and that we've seen over the past 10 or 15 years or so and that may pick up pace very quickly with the new judicial appointments by this current president -- the current administration.
Duncan Crary: We're currently just one Justice from totally losing the separation of church and state on the Supreme Court, or what do you think?
Derek Araujo: The fear is that we may be hinging maybe one vote away from losing church/state separation as we know it. As you probably know, there are two lines of thought with church/state separation. One line of thought is that, which goes back all the way to the founders -- to Madison and Jefferson and to a string of cases going back many decades stating that government has no right to show favoritism for either a particular religion or for religion in general over non-belief.
Duncan Crary: Right.
Derek Araujo: This is the stance that we've in many cases written by Justice O'Connor, who's now replaced, as we know, by Justice Alito. And the fear is that will be replaced by a more accommodationist stance, where judges will think that the government can accommodate religious belief and it's not inappropriate in instances for the government to show favoritism for religious belief over non-belief. And that is a dangerous thing.
Duncan Crary: Right. So, what types of cases are in the news right now that you think you may be approached by someone who has a lawsuit -- a civil rights issue they want litigation for? What types of issues you think will arise, or are coming up?
Derek Araujo: Well, there are a lot of issues that are arising right now because of the extreme, the extensive mixing of government and religion in the current administration. We see that with everything from faith based initiatives funding and money being funneled to religious that are using that for proselytizing.
Duncan Crary: Right.
Derek Araujo: There was just a suit, as you probably know, that was filed by a wonderful organization in Washington D.C. called Americans United for the Separation of Church and State against a faith based ministry that's allegedly been using money -- federal taxpayers dollars -- to proselytize in the course of their offering services -- marriage counseling services. And they offer Bible based services.
Duncan Crary: Right.
Derek Araujo: This is one example of many that we see. But more generally I think it's important to defend the wall of separation right now because religion is pervasive across the board. We've seen in this in everything from abstinence only education that's being forced on our schools that, let's face it, is grounded in religious belief.
Duncan Crary: Absolutely.
Derek Araujo: There are children in the United States, children of gay and lesbian parents, who are denied health care on the basis of a religious prejudice, let's face it, that's infiltrated the law.
Duncan Crary: Absolutely.
Derek Araujo: Our health policy -- our important medical research is being held hostage to religious belief. So I think was we need to do is not only be active litigants, but also be active politically and raising awareness about the often pernicious effect that religion can have on our policy because we hear very frequently of the beneficial effects of religion but we very rarely hear about the many pernicious effects.
Duncan Crary: Now, Derek, can I ask you something? I hear this often stated by leaders of the free thought community, that atheism is really last civil rights issue in this country. There's a little bit of debate about that. For example, people will say that you can be elected to public office you are open about being gay but you cannot get elected to a public office if you openly profess your atheism or your non-belief. That's one example of why people say that atheism is sort of the last civil rights issue. Do you think that atheism is civil rights issue?
Derek Araujo: I think in a way that it is, and this is not to trivialize other civil rights issues. It's not to say that atheists have suffered the same amount of discrimination...
Duncan Crary: Yeah. I think that's where people have a problem with this, right?
Derek Araujo: Exactly, if you compare us to let's say racial integration and racial problems in America there's not that same quality of...
Duncan Crary: You can hide the fact that you have darker skin, for example, but you can hide the fact that you don't believe in God. Right?
Derek Araujo: Well, this is true.
Duncan Crary: That's the debate. I'm sure people would challenge me on that.
Derek Araujo: That makes us similar, I guess, to the gay and lesbian movement where somebody's sexuality may not be apparent from his or her appearance.
Duncan Crary: Right.
Derek Araujo: But I think in many ways it is a civil rights issue because there is a common perception in the public, contrary to what the Constitution says, that an atheist should not be electable to public office. And this is something that we have even heard Presidents say, including...
Duncan Crary: George H. Bush.
Derek Araujo: George H. Bush and William Jefferson Clinton, if I'm not mistaken, has made similar remarks in the past. If you do some polling out there, atheists remain the one most despised and misunderstood group in the United States. And that's a little bit frightening. If we're really true to our principals of religious pluralism and tolerance there should be room for an atheist to be elected to public office. There should be more room atheists to be open about their disbelief in public without somebody saying that's being offensive, whereas someone being open about their religious belief somehow isn't.
Duncan Crary: Do you think this battle's going to be won in the courts or do you think this battle's going to be won in the media and through public relations?
Derek Araujo: This has to be won in the media and the rough and tumble of normal politics rather than in the courts. I think anytime you have a legal movement that doesn't have backing, popular political support, it's really an empty -- it's really not accomplishing very much. And I think, and I may be unpopular for saying this, but I think we really could benefit from having debate within our community about whether it's really effective in our long term interests, whether it's really effective to bring some of these high profile symbolic suits and I have a particular suit in mind...
Duncan Crary: We just interviewed Michael Newdow for a previous podcast for the... "In God We Trust" I assume is what you're eluding to, right?
Derek Araujo: Indeed. Indeed. And this is not to (knock) Dr. Newdow. I'm on record, I've written articles supporting his position on the Pledge of Allegiance question.
Duncan Crary: And the Institute has signed on to an amicus brief supporting for that case also.
Derek Araujo: Is that right?
Duncan Crary: Yes.
Derek Araujo: I think that on legal grounds, on moral and political I would absolutely agree with Dr. Newdow in that the government has no business infusing religion in the Pledge. I would support his move to return the Pledge to a religiously neutral form that doesn't force somebody to choose between his or her religious belief and pledging to his or her country. That said, I think that we need to be strategic and we need to be intelligent about the way that we litigate. If you look at some of the opinions that were written in recent years by liberal Justices, even Justice Ginsberg, Justice Stevens -- if you look at their opinions in the Ten Commandments cases they make a point of contrasting the words "In God We Trust" as it appears on our currency with Ten Commandments and Establishment Clause violations. So we know how the conservative Justices on the court are going to vote on this issue. But if we think that we don't have the support liberal Justices either, we maybe doing ourselves terrible damage by instituting a precedent that's disfavorable to us and will take, let's face it, years of work to undo. We'll also, quite frankly, give the religious right a rallying point for the new term elections.
Duncan Crary: Yeah.
Derek Araujo: I think it is important, of course, to litigate in the courts. I'm all for standing up and defending the Church State separation and defending our rights in court. But I think you're right in thinking that needs to be done in parallel with a broad political organization. And that's something that we, as a community, really desperately need to do if we're going to prevent this wall of separation from going into remission for a number of years. I have some friends in the legal community that are very despondent over the course that the law is taking, who think that it might take a century or so to return to the high water mark in the 1960s and 70s when judges really took the separation of Church and State seriously. I'm not that pessimistic. I think that a century is an eon in the development of the law. And we have to remember that it was maybe half a century between
Plessy v. Ferguson and
Brown v. Board of Education on the issue of the racial integration. It was 17 years only between the court reversing itself and
Bowers v. Hardwick and
Lawrence v. Texas, the Supreme Court case dealing with the right to privacy and protection for gays and lesbians. So, I'm not that despondent, but I think that if we are to reserve, if we are halt this tide and perhaps to reserve we desperately need to get organized politically.
Duncan Crary: Derek Araujo, thanks so much for taking the time to speak with us.
Derek Araujo: Thank you for having me.
[song]
Numerous Voices: We are the members of the Capital District Human Society Executive Council, and you're listening the Humanist Network News.
Jes Constantine and Duncan Crary: And we're Jes Constantine and Duncan Crary, hosts of the Humanist Network News podcast. [laughs]
Jes Constantine: Nice.
Duncan Crary: Little synchronicity there. OK, so that was Derek Araujo, an attorney practicing in New York City. Jes, it's time for a little musical break. Shall we?
Jes Constantine: This is my favorite part.
Duncan Crary: Yeah?
Jes Constantine: Yeah.
Duncan Crary: OK, so you found this song the other day on MySpace. And the reason why you're on MySpace is...?
Jes Constantine: Well, actually, the Institute for Humanist Studies has a MySpace page. That is
mySpace.com/humaniststudies. And as I was pursuing on MySpace, I found a "Jesus is an Atheist".
Duncan Crary: AtheistJesus, I think was the person's name.
Jes Constantine: Yes, that's right. AtheistJesus.
Duncan Crary: He's one of our friends listed on our MySpace page.
Jes Constantine: That's right, he has 24 friends, all of which have something to do with Jesus in their profile title.
Duncan Crary: That's right, different varieties of Jesus. And from there, his theme song, which we found this other artist, is "God Thinks" and its song by a New York City artist named Voltaire. So, let's play this song.
[Song Lyrics "God Thinks" by Voltaire]
God thinks all blacks are obsolete farm equipment.
God thinks the Jews killed his son and must be punished.
God thinks the white man is Satan.
God, they know what God thinks.
God thinks we should all convert to Judaism.
God thinks we must all be Christians and.
God thinks we should all embrace Islam.
God thinks the only true religion is Hinduism.
And I.
I know what God thinks.
God thinks you're a waste of flesh.
God prefers an Atheist.
God thinks all people like you are evil.
God thinks all people like you are an embarrassment to creation.
Self-righteous, judgmental, first to throw the stone.
And use His name for your own protection.
God thinks the sun revolves around the Earth.
God thinks there was something very wrong with Copernicus.
God thinks abortion is murder and.
God thinks everything that science gave us is wrong.
God thinks women deserve it.
God thinks AIDS is a form of punishment.
I hate people who blame the Devil for their own shortcomings and.
I hate people who thank God when things go right.
And I.
I know what God thinks.
God thinks you're an idiot.
God prefers a heretic.
God God.
God thinks all people like you are evil.
God thinks all people like you are an embarrassment to creation.
Self-righteous, judgmental, first to throw the stone.
And use His name for your own agenda.
God is a liberal.
God is a democrat.
God wants you to vote republican.
Never trust a man who puts his words in the mouth of god.
And says that it's absolute truth.
It's lies and it smells like death.
It's all in a day's work taking money from the poor.
Why do you think that God would need your dirty money.
If he wanted to start a holy war?
Self-righteous, judgmental, first to throw the stone.
And use His name for your own protection.
God thinks puppies need to die and.
God thinks babies need to drown.
'cause God is neither good nor bad.
God is you and me.
God is Everything.
Duncan Crary: Very cool. That was "God Thinks" by Voltaire. And you can hear more of his music at
.
It's that time of the year again, folks. If you've been reading the HNN ezine at HumanistNetworkNews.org, then you know that the Institute for Humanist Studies just released its quarterly
fundraising appeal.
Jes Constantine: That's correct, Duncan. And the Institute for Humanist Studies is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that makes programs like the Humanist Network News podcast not only possible but free for all you listeners out there.
Duncan Crary: Is anything ever free, Jes?
Jes Constantine: Well, my grandmother did always use to say, "You never get something for nothing."
Duncan Crary: Very sagacious woman.
Jes Constantine: Yes, she is.
Duncan Crary: OK, this isn't NPR. We're going to cut out this fundraising banter and cut to the case. We're giving a quick reminder that although the Institute for Humanist Studies has many programs that we provide for free, if people don't support the Institute with whatever you can, $25, $10...
Jes Constantine: Five bucks, folks.
Duncan Crary: Five bucks, Jes says it's OK.
Jes Constantine: I do.
Duncan Crary: If you only give five bucks, go for it. If you can't afford to give anything, we understand, that's why we provide the program for free. But, if give five bucks, that really might make a difference. If nobody does that, then the Institute for Humanist Studies might not be around to keep providing you with the programming that you enjoy.
Jes Constantine: If you'd like to donate, you can do so online at our website
americanhumanist.org. Just follow the link in the left menu to donate.
Duncan Crary: And, if you prefer to make a check instead of making an online donation, you can find out instructions on where to mail it and who to make it out for on the website
americanhumanist.org. So, I'm forgetting what time in the show...what are we doing it next, Jes?
Jes Constantine: I think you're forgetting because it's listener comment line...
Duncan Crary: Oh.
Jes Constantine: ...and unfortunately, we don't have any comments this month.
Duncan Crary: Yeah, you're right; that is why I forgot. It's feast or famine with these listeners out there. We've had some shows with a lot of good comments, right?
Jes Constantine: Yeah.
Duncan Crary: But not this one. Maybe they forgot the listener comment line. I mean, I have it tattooed on the back of my hand.
Jes Constantine: Well, we can remedy that, Duncan.
Duncan Crary: Oh yeah?
Jes Constantine: Folks, why don't you go ahead and grab a pencil or pen or something like that and write this down here?
Duncan Crary: Yes, Ms. Constantine.
Jes Constantine: Thank you. Our listener comment line is (877) 659-1515. Or, you can Skype us -- yes, Duncan that is a verb, to Skype -- you can Skype us at hnn_editor.
Duncan Crary: And for those of you who don't know what the verb Skype means, don't worry about it. OK? That reminds me, next month Molleen Matsumura is going to be visiting us here at the Humanist Center. Molleen is also known as "Sweet Reason". I think she is the only humanist advice columnist in the world. Or actually, I should say, the only advice columnist writing a column specifically for humanists.
Jes Constantine: There you go.
Duncan Crary: I don't know the world views of all the advice columnists out there. But anyway, she's going to be in the studio next month. We're going to do an audio show, and if you want to instead of writing in your advice query, you can actually call in.
Jes Constantine: Wait a minute. So you're saying that our listeners out there can call, leave us a listener comment, and ask any question pertaining to humanist or freethought issues or problems, and she's going to go ahead and answer those?
Duncan Crary: Well, I might be a longwinded, Jes, but I was working my way up to that. Yeah, so thanks for cutting to the chase. Call the listener comment line, ask her a question. You can still leave an anonymous question, you don't have to leave your name or anything like that. And we'll play those clips during the show, and Molleen is going to answer them live for us here in the studio. So, 206-339-4148. Skype us at HNN_Editor.
Segment 4: Anti Atheist Discrimination in the Boy Scouts
Jes Constantine: All right, and next up is Margaret Downey. Last month, you heard a segment of an interview between Matt Cherry and Margaret about her new role as the Atheist Alliance International president. This month, we're going to play a segment from that same interview about her work fighting against the government supported discrimination of atheists and gays in the Boy Scouts of America.
Duncan Crary: Now, I'm going to do Margaret's bio this time. You've been reading all the bios.
Jes Constantine: Go for it Duncan.
Duncan Crary: Affectionately referred to as the "Martha Stewart of Freethought" -- I got that from someone else's website. Pre-prison Martha Stewart.
Jes Constantine: Of course, of course.
Duncan Crary: Margaret Downey has been an atheist activist for fifteen years. She recently became the president of the
Atheist Alliance International.
Jes Constantine: In 1992, Duncan, she founded the
Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia.
Duncan Crary: In 1993, Jes, she founded the
Anti-Discrimination Support Network.
Jes Constantine: That's right. And Matt Cherry recently spoke to her at the
Humanist Center here at Albany.
Matt Cherry: Can you tell us a little bit about how you got involved in the Boy Scout issue and how you got involved in the freethought movement generally?
Margaret Downey: Yes. Well, actually the Boy Scouts case did propel me into leadership roles, and the fact that I was a networker established me in the atheist community as someone who could organize people. I went about approaching the Boy Scout problem by reaching out to people who had experienced the same thing, and could share information with other families, so that we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.
Matt Cherry: Now, what exactly was you're experience with the Boy Scouts?
Margaret Downey: Well, my son was ejected from the Boy Scouts after seven years of being involved with them after a troop leader discovered that we were a non-Church going family. We didn't call ourselves an atheist family at the time. We just called ourselves freethinkers. And, my son had never even heard the word atheist until a new troop leader had looked at his book and said, "What is this? You replaced the word God with Good? That's not going to work." So he demanded that we find a religion, and find a religion prior to coming to the next troop meeting.
Matt Cherry: Any religion?
Margaret Downey: Only the religions listed in the book were acceptable. So it was a traumatic time for our family, and sure enough we decided that we couldn't be hypocrites and we were more principled then lying on an application, lying to ourselves. And we did not pick a religion, but we moved very shortly after this incident to another state, which was Pennsylvania. In Pennsylvania, we moved into our home. And the first visitor to our home was our neighbor dressed in a Boy Scout uniform with his Cub Scout son inviting us to join his troops. So we said, "We would love to join the Boy Scouts, but we better check with the national office to make sure it's OK." We sent our application in and it was rejected saying that the Boy Scouts feel that no boy will ever become the best kind of citizen without a belief in God. And that was just so insulted to us that we decided to look at the Pennsylvania statues on discrimination and discovered that if the Boy Scouts truly were a public organization they were in violation of the Pennsylvania Human Relations Anti-Discrimination Statues. And that's what we filed our case based under. It took nine years for the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission to actually investigate my claims. By that time, the case of Dale v. Boy Scouts of America reached the Supreme Court. And it was determined at that time -- and that was in the year 2000 -- that the Boy Scouts are actually a private organization and could discriminate against whomever they wanted to. And that would be -- if today they decided that Jews weren't good enough, they could kick out all the of the Jewish Boy Scouts and Boy Scout leaders. It's that they are private now.
Matt Cherry: What do you think about the ruling that they are private because they seem to have a lot of advantages that a lot of private clubs do not receive.
Margaret Downey: And that's where we are having a great amount of difficulty. Is that the Boy Scouts are still recipients of public benefits and gratuities. And so, if they are truly private, they must be self-supporting. So we are having a heck of a time locating all of the infractions and demanding that the infractions be stopped. In Philadelphia, I have been battling to have the Boy Scouts ejected or to pay rent from a huge building in Philadelphia that have occupied since 1928 rent free.
Matt Cherry: Wow. Can we get a deal like that? That sounds like a good deal for humanist groups.
Margaret Downey: [laughs] Right. I wish that the building were occupied by another group that could help on a non-discriminatory basis all the young girls and boys, like the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. They do not discriminate.
Matt Cherry: Right.
Margaret Downey: So let them use the building free of charge. But if the Boy Scouts would like to stay in the building, let's charge them fair market price rent. So here we are, witnessing in Philadelphia raises of the bus fairs, libraries shutting down, hourly wages being cut from state employees; all the time the Boy Scouts are getting free rent. It isn't making sense.
Matt Cherry: Not if they're a private club.
Margaret Downey: Not if they're a private club. So, now the mayor has finally taken notice after we did a year's write-in campaign. I've done letters, I've done phone calling campaigns, faxing campaigns. We've done this over the last six years and he's finally paying attention. But wouldn't you know Matt, in all of the coverage of all of this issue, not one mention of the atheist problem with the Boy Scouts has come to light.
Matt Cherry: Right.
Margaret Downey: It is always the gay issue.
Matt Cherry: Right.
Margaret Downey: The gay issue is a wonderful cause. They embrace our cause as we embrace their cause, but the fact is the gay community is very organized and I think atheists can learn a lot from the gay community.
Matt Cherry: Yeah.
Margaret Downey: And so I have sort of modeled a lot of my campaigning after what the gay community has done.
Matt Cherry: There's one bit of coverage I saw that did give equal emphasis to the discrimination against the non-religious as it gave to discrimination against gay Boy Scouts -- gay Scout Leaders -- which was the
Bullshit show with Penn and Teller.
Margaret Downey: Yes.
Matt Cherry: And you were very much the star of that show, I felt. Could tell us a little bit on how you got involved in that, and how come we got such good coverage of the discrimination against non-believers?
Margaret Downey: I became friends with both Penn and Teller through a series of communications that I had with them. They were going to be the recipients of the Richard Dawkins award. And so I, a year ahead of the actual ceremony...
Matt Cherry: Sorry. What is the Richard Dawkins award for our listeners?
Margaret Downey: The Richard Dawkins award is an award given to people who exemplify the great work that Richard Dawkins does either by being an outspoken atheist or by scientific research. So the categories that people can fall into to be a recipient of the Richard Dawkins award could be entertainment, could be media, could be scientific endeavors, could be researching. So there's a whole list that we can pick from as to who the recipient is going to be. In 2004 it was the Penn and Teller magical comedy group because when they're on stage they talk about being proud atheists. And being covered by the media, they talk about being proud atheists. So they were to be on our recipient list, and I became very good friends with both of them. I have to give Teller a lot of credit. He wrote this particular episode, and I helped...
Matt Cherry: Teller's the silent one, right?
Margaret Downey: Yes, Teller's the silent one, but he does speak and speaks very eloquently. He and Penn decided to do this very funny expose of the Boy Scout situation, but in humor was the very serious aspect of how it affected the atheist and gay community. So I invited them to come to an event that we staged in October protesting the fact that the President of the United States of America is also the nominal president of the Boy Scouts. It's a figurehead presidency of the Boy Scouts. And we wanted him to stop that -- to dissociate himself. If he's going to represent all of the people of the United States of America, how can he select a bigoted youth group as his primary advocacy?
Matt Cherry: I find it a very entertaining show. I'm not sure how many people it would convert who weren't already on our side because Penn and Teller are very in your face and sort of aggressive and irreverent might be an understated way of putting it.
Margaret Downey: What I wanted to convey -- and I expressed this many times to Teller and to the producers and the writers -- is I wanted people to walk away from that episode saying, "Boy, this really angers me that my tax dollars are being used by a private group. Are being used to help a private group become bigger and stronger and my kids can't even join the Boy Scouts. My family members are affected by that." So I wanted them to realize that their tax dollars were being used by a private organization to promote their ideals. And our government actually endorses the Boy Scouts of America. Our government gives a nod of approval to the Boy Scouts. They let them use the government land for their jamboree for $1. $1. Then they also set up the Boy Scout jamboree using thousands of dollars to hire experts to put up tents, to pay our military, to direct traffic. There's all kinds of gratuity given to the Boy Scouts, and in fact, what has come out over the last few years is the fact that our military gives the Boys Scouts surplus ammunition.
Matt Cherry: Oh, fun.
Margaret Downey: Now what private group, what private youth group in America is handed ammunition for safe riflery.
Matt Cherry: Right.
Margaret Downey: And on the same page, they are espousing hatred towards the gay and atheist community. But here's our government handing them surplus ammunition and surplus camping equipment.
Matt Cherry: If you're going to be a bigot, you need be a heavily armed bigot.
Margaret Downey: [laughs] We want to put a stop to that. We want them to either pay their way or change their policy. Of course, it would be the best thing for society as a whole for the Boy Scouts to change their policy to be all-welcoming. To treat all children equally, and to abided by their own tenets.
Matt Cherry: Amen to that.
[song]
Segment 4: The ACLU in Louisiana
Jes Constantine: You're listening to the Humanist Network News. I'm your host, Jes Constantine.
Duncan Crary: And I'm your host, Duncan Crary.
Jes Constantine: Duncan, isn't that Margaret so pleasant?
Duncan Crary: Very, very pleasant. Definitely the pre-prison Martha Stewart of the freethought fold.
Jes Constantine: Definitely.
Duncan Crary: Right. If you want to learn more about the Atheist Alliance International of which Margaret Downey is the new president, you can visit
atheistalliance.org. If you want to learn more about the Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia which she founded, you can go to
fsgp.org.
Jes Constantine: Finishing up our theme of civil rights and the secular community, we have Michael Malec, who is a board member of the
New Orleans Secular Humanist Association. And last month you heard a segment of the interview where he talked about the status of Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina. And this month, we're going to play a segment of the same interview where he talks about his work as a contract lobbyist for the
Louisiana American Civil Liberties Union.
Michael Malec: I use to be on the staff of the ACLU of Louisiana. And so between being a staff member and being contract lobbyist lobbying the Louisiana legislature on behalf of the ACLU for about 10 years, and it's quite a trip.
Duncan Crary: Now, tell me about the makeup of the Louisiana State Legislature. How many openly gay members of legislature are there?
Michael Malec: Sure.
Duncan Crary: And what's the religious makeup of the legislature?
Michael Malec: According to official numbers, of the 144 members there are 143 Christians and one Jew.
Duncan Crary: One Jewish member?
Michael Malec: Yes.
Duncan Crary: Is that one Jewish member running for reelection?
Michael Malec: Actually, we were one of the states that stupidity voted in term limits a number of years ago. In fact the man who was our U.S. Senator now, David Vitter, who is becoming a problem in Washington, was one of people behind that. So, Jay Dardenne, who is the one Jewish Senator, is term limited. He will not be able to retain his seat, so he's decided to run for Secretary of State...
Duncan Crary: Oh yeah?
Michael Malec: ...which is an elected office there. Actually, we elect just about everybody in Louisiana. We have elections every time we turn around. But at least they're always held on Saturday.
Duncan Crary: So it sounds like you don't have much diversity among your legislators. But what about their views? What are their voting records on, let's say, church/state separation?
Michael Malec: It's very interesting that on church / state separation and virtually all of the other ACLU hot button issues, all the criminal justice issues, the abortion issues, repro freedom issues, virtually all of them. I can expect the votes of the black legislators for New Orleans -- almost without question, and a couple black legislators from other parts of the state, the white Louisiana Baptists never vote the way I would want them to. And then it's a mix with the rest of them. As a lobbyist, anyone who knows how a legislature operates, it's far easier to kill a bill then to pass one. I've had a pretty good record of killing a lot of bad legislation, but I've been very unsuccessful at trying to get a good piece through -- like an anti-discrimination bill for sexual orientation. We've been working on that for 10 years. This last sessions we got it out of the committee in the House and out of the committee in the Senate for the first time, but of course it was voted down on the floor in both houses.
Duncan Crary: Yeah.
Michael Malec: So there's progress, but it's very, very slow on the issues that are important to us.
Duncan Crary: And what's a recent bill, let's say a bad one that you had struck down?
Michael Malec: Well, there was one... The ACLU of Louisiana has sued Tangipahoa Parish. We have parishes instead of counties, it's not that they're so religious -- they call them that.
Duncan Crary: I was wondering that in the news coverage actually.
Michael Malec: We're the only state -- we're also the only state that doesn't operate under common law. We operate under civil law, as does France and most of Europe. But all the rest the states operate under English common law. And that has to do with our heritage from Spain and France. Anyway, Tangipahoa Parish school board has been a problem for ACLU for years. They have evolution disclaimer stickers, and we won on that. And it's always something there. We filed suit against them for starting their school board meetings with a prayer, and we won. A legislature came up with the bright idea to modify -- to amend the public meetings law to allow an executive session, presumably for something like discussing an on-going lawsuit or a contract negotiation or personal matters, things that need to be confidential. Well, he wanted to make an exception so they could have an executive session for prayer.
Duncan Crary: Of course.
Michael Malec: Of course, he didn't check with anyone because they don't want to pray in private. Their whole thing is they want to have that prayer in public at the beginning of the meeting. I was able to fight against it as a very bad change to our Louisiana. There are things that are good about our state and things that are bad about it. One of things that's good is that we have very good open meetings and public records law and this would have done a lot of damage to that and that's what I testified on. Not the Church State issue but the damage to the law. And the Baton-Rouge Advocate picked it up, ran an editorial in support of our position -- said we were right, it should be killed. And it got killed on the floor.
Duncan Crary: Excellent. Well, Michael Malec, thanks for taking the time to speak with us today.
Michael Malec: Sure. It was enjoyable and please folks who are listening come down to New Orleans. We need the tourists.
Duncan Crary: all right, you heard it. Thanks a lot.
[song]
Jes Constantine: That was Michael Malec, board member of the New Orleans Secular Humanist Association. Now you can learn more about NOSHA at
NOSHA.secularhumanism.net. Michael is also a contract lobbyist for the Louisiana American Civil Liberties Union. And you can learn more about them at
www.laaclu.org.
Duncan Crary: How many times can you say the Louisiana ACLU?
Jes Constantine: You know, I can't even say it once accurately. Stop making fun of me, Duncan.
Duncan Crary: Another activity down in Louisiana that we've been covering, the September 6th edition of the Humanist Network News ezine, had a column by Harry Greenburger who is the president of NOSHA, New Orleans Secular Humanist Association. And, you can check out
HumanistNetworkNews.org to read the
article. Basically, there was a prayer service that the city of New Orleans was going to sponsor to honor the victims of Katrina. And Harry Greenburger wanted to participate. They had religious leaders from all over the city, and he wanted to participate as a secular humanist, and they wouldn't let him. Right?
Jes Constantine: That's right. But, they actually ended up letting him, right?
Duncan Crary: With the help of the Louisiana ACLU.
Jes Constantine: Nice. Full circle, folks.
Duncan Crary: It is. Check out Humanist Network News to read that article. So that's our show, Jes.
Jes Constantine: So that's show, Duncan.
Duncan Crary: We survived another one.
Jes Constantine: Yes, we did. Hopefully our guests out there did too.
Duncan Crary: Oh, they're all asleep by now. Humanist Network News is made possible by the Institute for Humanist Studies, a 501c3 nonprofit organization that promotes the spread of humanism and is currently asking for people to give donations.
Jes Constantine: Tax exempt donations, right?
Duncan Crary: If you're in the U.S., that's right.
Jes Constantine: Now, we'd love to hear some listener feedback. You can leave us a listener comment at (877) 659-1515 or you can Skype us at HNN_editor.
Duncan Crary: You can also leave messages on that line for Molleen Matsumura, for her audio version of Sweet Reason, the Humanist Advice Column, and please no telephone solicitors unless you have a question for Molleen.
Jes Constantine: That's right.
Duncan Crary: Like, "Why am I a telemarketer who's leaving messages on a listener comment line? What should I do with my career?"
Jes Constantine: To hear some more about the audio -- to learn more about the audio that we use in our podcasts, you can visit our podcast blog page which is
ihs.lybsyn.com.
Duncan Crary: I'm your host, Duncan Crary.
Jes Constantine: And, I'm your host, Jes Constantine.
Duncan Crary: Thanks for listening.
[song]
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