Transcript: HNN Podcast #3

[Theme Song]

Duncan Crary: It's January 25th, you're listening to the Humanist Network News, an audio production by the Institute for Humanist Studies. I'm your host, Duncan Crary.

[Theme Song]

Duncan Crary: Why are there so few black people involved in humanism, and what are the African American humanists out there doing to reach out to their community? In today's show, we're going to be discussing humanist and the black community during the first portion.

In the second half of our show, I'm going to speak with Caspar Melville, editor of the British magazine New Humanist. Caspar will refute a claim by French politician that French gangster rap music incited rioting in France recently.

First, I'd like to speak to our new listeners, though, the people who may have stumbled across this podcast while surfing the web, people who are wondering what is this humanist thing all about?

Well, are you a humanist? Do you think of yourself as nonreligious? Are you skeptical of the existence of a supernatural realm? Do you think science and reason lead to a more reliable knowledge than faith, revelation, authority or tradition? Do you believe that a person can be ethical without religious belief? Is your concept of the meaning of life derived from human responsibility? Do you expect human progress to result from human accomplishment rather than divine intervention?

If you answered yes to these questions, you may be one of the millions of humanists on Earth, people who live meaningful, fulfilling lives based on reason and compassion. Welcome to the group. If you want to learn more about humanism, visit the website of the Institute for Humanist Studies at www.HumanistStudies.org. You can also take online courses through the Institute at HumanistEducation.com.

Duncan Crary:Protecting human rights is a core value of humanist. Matt Cherry, Executive Director of the Institute for Humanist Studies, advocates for human rights at the United Nations in New York City. Matt's the President of the NGO Committee of Freedom of Religion or Belief, which is a fundamental human right, and the "or Belief" part specifically addresses humanist, atheism, free thought. Although Matt is a native of England, if you push him, he will certainly credit the United States as being a leader of human rights around the world, and in fact our Bill of Rights provided an excellent model for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights issued by the United Nations.

And yet, as we all know, America has had a history of violating human rights. One of the greatest human rights violations in American history was, of course, the institution of slavery. Long after slavery was abolished, black Americans continued to struggle for their rights.

We recently celebrated the birthday of the Rev. Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr., who is probably the best known leader of the civil rights movement of the 1950's and 60's. King was a religious figure, and so it may seem to many that the civil rights movement is tied to religion. But McKinley Jones and Taunya Hannibal Williams of the Black American Free Thought Association are working to teach people that many prominent leaders in black history and of the black civil rights movement were freethinkers. Some of them were humanists, too.

In a moment I'm going to play an instrumental version of the Negro spiritual "Wade in the Water." This was a song that African slaves in America would have sung while they were working. The lyrics to the song make many religious references to God, Moses, and the Israelites of the Old Testament.

McKinley points out that Negro spiritual songs like "Wade in the Water" also contain coded messages to slaves encouraging them to escape to freedom. Many times slaves on the run would walk or wade in the water, so that dogs couldn't smell their tracks -- they'd throw off the scent by wading in the water. Beneath the superficial religious theme to these songs, there was a more meaningful humanist message. We'll talk more about this in a moment, but first here's an excerpt from "Wade in the Water," used by permission of the musician, Jimmy Calier.

[song]

Duncan Crary: I'm here with McKinley Jones and Taunya Hannibal Williams at the Humanist Center. Taunya and McKinley are representatives of the Black American Free Thought Association, based here in Albany, New York. McKinley Jones is a retired executive who worked for the government for many years. He's a very active community leader, and he is particularly concerned with the future of African Americans in the United States. He has been a proponent of the separation of church and state for many years.

He is the president of the Black American Free Thought Association. Taunya Hannibal Williams is the membership coordinator and secretary for the Black American Free Thought Association.

She's an educator and a trainer. She's worked for several nonprofit advocacy organizations, and she's been involved in labor. Thanks for joining me today.

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: Thank you for having us.

Duncan Crary: Taunya, maybe I could start with you. Could you explain to me what is the mission of the Black American Free Thought Association?

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: The mission, from my point of view, is that we want to do some outreach to the black American community and engage them in discussion on humanist history and ideas.

Duncan Crary: Are there, how many organizations are there in the United States working on this cause?

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: If you look on the Internet, there are a smattering of groups here and there, but there is no coordinated effort. The most prominent one is AAH.

Duncan Crary: AAH, that's the African Americans for Humanism, Norm Allen heads that group? Where are they based? Is that in Buffalo, New York?

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: That's in Buffalo.

Duncan Crary: So we have two groups and they're both located in upstate New York.

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: There's also one in Harlem, but again, there's no coordinated effort so we're kind of like satellites out there floating around and that's part of the problem, we really want to get folks to communicate and organize.

Duncan Crary: McKinley, you've been active in the secular community and you've been an active humanist for many years. In your experience, are there a lot of black American people involved in humanism?

McKinley Jones: I think it depends on how you look at it. There's a new book out called Black But Not Baptist, it also indicates that there's a lot of black American people who happen to be skeptics, humanists, whatever, that actually go to church. A lot of that has to do with socialization and making friends and stuff. But the numbers really need to be increased.

One of the ways that we're trying to do about it is, we really think the community at-large and the African American community in particular is really misinformed when it comes to humanists. There's a long history of humanist struggle within the black American community, and that's been muted over the years. In the climate that we live in today, it's being muted more. The thought now is that everything, all the thoughts and the ideas that emanate about the black civil rights struggle is Bible centric.

Duncan Crary: Right.

McKinley Jones: People that speak about them was intoxicated with God, and they somehow or other decided to do something about it, and that's far from the truth. It does a disservice to many of the giants of the race who actually against great odds persevered through education and knowledge and worked days and nights in order to get a handle on this problem, they don't get the recognition.

Duncan Crary: One of the things you mentioned to me last year when we were speaking was on New Year's Eve, there's a lot of black churches have a Watch Night service. What you told me was, originally, Watch Night service was a lot of the black churches congregated to see if the Emancipation Proclamation was really going to take effect on the first of the year, and that's what that tradition takes its root in today. However, you say a lot of those services are about the second coming of Jesus, is that correct?

McKinley Jones: Yes, yes, yes.

Duncan Crary: Maybe a lot of people have forgotten the history of that.

McKinley Jones: It's recorded. A matter of fact, what comes to mind is the book by Benton Haring, "There's A River" is a good recording. But also, New Year's was a day that raised great consternation in the African American community, because even after slavery, in some places, if you didn't have the right papers, you could be put in jail.

New Year's was always a time to be watchful and be praying for the next year. The history and struggle of blacks in this country has really been reality based, when you really look at it. The oppression and the slavery was so severe, you couldn't imagine anything other than that, you know? If all of my life I'm oppressed, my response has to be based on the reality that I have, recognizing that in terms of culture, certain aspects of the culture that's amenable to superstition and what have you, it takes people off in thinking that things are done by mysticism. But there's always been a voice of reality speaking in the African American community.

Duncan Crary: Your website has some information about prominent leaders in the black civil rights movement and I think even earlier, going all the way back to opponents of slavery.

McKinley Jones: If you want to go all the way back, we can start with Douglass. Douglass was not a colleague, but he had a lot of contact with Ingersoll, the noted humanist.

Duncan Crary: Was Frederick Douglass a humanist? How do you describe Frederick Douglass's world view?

McKinley Jones: One of the things he said was, I prayed for freedom for 20 years, and I got off my knees and I ran away. So that tells you what Frederick Douglass was.

Duncan Crary: Right. I should say, too, in previous conversation, McKinley, you're very mindful of, you don't just want to start labeling people as humanist to match up with your world view, so you're very mindful of that. You generally will use the term free thinker.

McKinley Jones: Right. One of the things, if you really study the history of black American people, you will find there's always a blur between the reality and the religious sector. I think if one peered in time, if people are really, really interested, if you studied the Harlem Renaissance, many of the people that we hold so dearly as thinkers, as free thought people, as skeptics, came out of the Harlem Renaissance.

Many of them were punished for having free thought ideas, and they were not allowed to pursue the ideas. Many lost their careers. Langston Hughes was investigated by the FBI. Paul Robertson, Docteur Du Bois... The list goes on and on. There was a real effort in order to silence any criticism of the religious order in America.

Duncan Crary: Taunya, as the Membership Coordinator, what types of people are you trying to reach out for? Are you, it seems like you're trying to reach out to people who maybe don't necessarily call themselves humanists but they're curious, they're interested, they may be a little skeptical. Is that correct?

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: I think that is the way that I imagine going about it. Again, our group is very small. I've been calling from folks that we know, that are activists and therefore very curious about, maybe not challenging the status quo but at least looking at different world views. So that's the number one thing. I think there are three basic areas where we can find folks to talk to.

One is to get a little bit more acquainted with the local humanist groups and see if there are any black Americans in those groups and we can really start discussing how we might branch out. Also, we have to approach this from a standpoint of, OK, where are the majority of black Americans? Although free thinkers are in churches like McKinley said, unless our group or other groups reach into the black churches, how are we going to have conversations? Then the last area is to approach groups like AAH and see if you can do some networking there. There's quite a bit of work to be done.

Duncan Crary: Do you plan to be more active with physical meetings, or do you plan to be more internet based organization? What are your thoughts on that?

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: I think we're going to do multi prong. That's just the way that is going to reach out to the broadest community as possible. The internet's very important, particularly and probably for younger folks, and people who like to do research, that's very important way to reach out to folks. Also, you've got quite a few community groups and quite a bit of an activist group in Albany. There's no reason why I can't take advantage of that as well.

Duncan Crary: Your web address is baftahome.com, that's the Black American Free Thought Association, baftahome.com. What types of information do you have on your website? I know it's in progress, but what types of information do you have available on your website right now?

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: Currently we have the beginnings of a database of folks that we consider to be humanist/free thinkers in the African American community at large. What else do we have, McKinley?

McKinley Jones: We have extensive reading lists, of books we think are very, very relevant to inform people. We're in the process of putting together an online quiz, in terms of, it would be surprising because people make an awful lot of assumptions about who might be a humanist and who might not be. For example, the originator of the March on Washington happened to be A. Philip Randolph, who was a humanist and is documented.

Most people would have assumed that it was Doctor King. It's those kinds of things that we have to do. The important thing to remember is that Doctor King and A. Philip Randolph worked together in the struggle in the black community. In order for progress to be made, you have to find ways for the secular community to work with the religious community.

Duncan Crary: I notice on your website there's a section about, is it chambega, is that how you pronounce it?

McKinley Jones: Right.

Duncan Crary: You explained this to me a little bit last year, McKinley. Could you refresh my memory, can you explain what is chambega?

McKinley Jones: Chambega is a Swahili term, and it means, broadly stated, upon the shoulders of the ancestors we stand. And that's what we're trying to say, in order to understand your history you really have to build upon what you gain. You really have to know that somebody else did something to allow you to do that. We base that.

For example, when we talk about Black History Week, Negro History Week, it was really started by Carter G. Woodson. It wasn't started by Doctor King. We all love and respect Doctor King, but people want to honor Black History Month, first thing they say is Doctor King. Doctor King stands upon the shoulders of these men that came before him. He was able to do much of what he did because they came before him. Recognizing that the early people in the race were African in origin, we realize that but we've been culturalized and Americanized since we've been here, we have to recognize each generation as you go forward.

Duncan Crary: That reminds me, in our last podcast we were talking about secular holiday traditions. A lot of humanists, when the holiday season comes around, they're looking for their own traditions. McKinley has a very fascinating tradition.

McKinley Jones: As a matter of fact, with each year it's getting more fascinating. Let me just say this before I say that. For those who really don't buy into what I'm saying, we need to understand that the period in history that we're talking about, most of the American African people were unlettered, illiterate, and uninformed, so it's foolhardy for anyone to say that there was a broad understanding of the concept of Christmas and New Year's, for reading and education had been denied to them.

But there was an opportune time for those that were smart enough, strong enough, to be able to prepare themselves if they were able to run away to freedom. So that was a very, very important time. Bits of that is recorded in the children's jingle, Follow the Drinking Gourd, and during Christmas many people would take off for the North and they would follow the North Star.

If you go back and look at the history, the more I look at it it's just amazing, it was a one year journey. If you were in Alabama and you wanted to go to Canada, the word would go around from person to person, quarter to quarter, to follow the drinking gourd. These were the kind of messages that were passed down. Symbolically, what we're trying to do is to create an atmosphere where we can this on to the younger generation and say that the holiday is a very, very significant part of your history and your culture, because it was a time that many took flight to escape. Perhaps you've heard of Harriet Tubman.

Duncan Crary: I have.

McKinley Jones: OK. There's a famous picture of her walking across the Freedom Bridge to Canada in 1851, I believe. It was all, part of that was, whatever time you get away from being a slave, those that used it wisely could increase their chances to be free. Those that got drunk, and many did, and those that danced and frolicked the night away, when they woke up, they were right back in the field as a slave. It was very, very important.

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: Let me interject for a moment. McKinley and I are from different generations, but what I find fascinating about chambega is that it is different from Kwanzaa. Kwanzaa's been instituted since the 60's and it's been talking hold because I think that the African American community really wants to have their own tradition.

Chambega really pays homage to an authentic history whereas the Kwanzaa celebrations really rely on more of the culture from Africa. Chambega really pays homage to the black American traditions.

For example, we have a very rustic looking tree that we use as a symbol, and off the tree is hanging a star which is a symbol of the North Star. I think that's very important as a symbol for folks to remember that the bareness of the tree might seem like it's bleak, but really what it is is it's strong and you can use it as a way to see this is how you flow upwards towards the North and the North Star is pointing towards it. It really means a lot. In modern times you get a sense of, ooh, shivers up and down your arms because this is really a true symbol.

Another symbol that we were talking about is the Chambega scene, where instead of the Nativity scene, we're going to have a scene that portrays what slave life was really like. Perhaps that's a little bit morbid for some people, but I think it, again, can point out the importance of a small community. It really points out the historical basis of where we are in modern history today. That's why I think it's important, because it really brings home the historical significance of an authentic black American experience.

Duncan Crary: Next month is Black History Month, and your organization is putting together an event that will occur both at the Unitarian Church in Albany and at the end of the month we've been speaking about bringing the exhibit here to the Humanist Center where the Institute is located. Taunya, why don't you continue and explain to us a little bit about what your group is planning.

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: What I think, again, is a little bit different than other folks might put on events for Black History Month, is that we're not about celebrating Black History Month. In fact, we think that Black History Month has been over commercialized and that's been really a problem. What we want to do is educate our community, and we're not just talking about the African American community, we're talking about everybody. This event is open to everybody. We're asking them to come and learn about black history, and the first thing that I think is really exciting is that McKinley has got a painter to do some portraits of important humanists, scholars, and activists from the black community.

We're also going to have a discussion about what does the over commercialization of Black History Month mean and why are we trying to bring it to light so folks can really understand their history and use it as a means to move forward, not to keep us where we are. On top of that discussion, we're going to have some, I guess you would call them modern historical renditions of traditional spirituals, because those songs were not originally used in the churches to invoke spirit, these were work songs and they were songs of rebellion. I think it's very important for folks to understand the history of where those came from. I'm very excited about that whole day. That's Friday, February 3rd.

Then on Saturday, the following day, we're going to have concurrent workshops that highlight the local and national impact of black American history. There's a rich history here that I think if folks just had a chance to listen and share and communicate, that's what we're hoping to do. We're going to draw from a broad array of folks and talk about the life and times of Zora Neale Hurston, and black abolitionists, and the forgotten black fore leaders, and the origin of Albany's interracial council which is why we have it at the Unitarian Church. because there was a lot of work between the Unitarians and folks in the community to really bring together the two races.

What I think is going to be a highlight is that James Weldon Johnson, who wrote Lift Up Your Voice And Sing, was a Unitarian but also a free thinker. We do want to pay homage to him. Then, towards the end of the month on February 18th, we're going to have a moderated panel discussion on race and poverty, which is a particular sensitive topic now that we look at what happened in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. This is in our face, and we really need to have an honest discussion about where we need to go as a country.

Duncan Crary: That event will be held at the Unitarian Church in Albany, New York.

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: 405 Washington Avenue.

Duncan Crary: OK. I'll have some information on our website, humanistnetworknews.org. I presume there'll be information on your website also?

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: We're working on that.

McKinley Jones: Yes.

Duncan Crary: Which is baftahome.com. McKinley and Taunya, I want to thank you very much for joining me today. Is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap this up?

McKinley Jones: I'd just like to speak about the conference for a minute. As Taunya was saying, the conference really is in form, and we are going to try to make it interactive. I've been to so many of these conferences where we have the politicians speaking and talking with no commitment to make things happen, so we're not going to invite politicians to come and speak.

Today, with the politicians, I think there's a retrenchment from affirmative action in terms of hiring in Albany County, city and the unions. In this month of February, you're going to have every politician in Albany McKinley Jones said it, if you know what I mean, we really don't want to hear you talking about black history and how much you love everything until you start hiring somebody. That's very, very important; we've been celebrated for the last thirty years, now is the time to remind people that the people we're talking about, we're fighting for results, a share in the American dream.

Duncan Crary: Well, thanks again for being here.

Taunya Hannibal-Williams: Thank you for having us.

McKinley Jones: Thank you for having us. It's a pleasure, and hoping to do it again sometime.

[Music]

Duncan Crary: The song you just heard was "Follow the Drinking Gourd" by Roger McGuinn. McGuinn fronted the popular music group, The Byrds, in the 1960s. That's the group that David Crosby was in before he went to Crosby, Stills and Nash. McGuinn gave us permission to play that song on our show, and he asked us to mention his website, mcguinn.com, where you can see what's he's been up to and purchase some of his music.

Duncan Crary: Before the song, we heard a conversation I recorded earlier this month with McKinley Jones and Taunya Hannibal Williams of the Black American Free Thought Association. You can learn more about that group by visiting www.baftahome.com.

Duncan Crary: After the interview, Taunya asked me to clarify one point she made. In our conversation, she mentioned her group will be doing outreach in black churches. They will actually be reaching out to many community organizations that have black members, certainly not just churches. I should also clarify one point too. I was talking to McKinley about hosting an event here at the Humanist Center in February, which is Black History Month; it turns out that we are actually going to have to host that event in early March instead, which is Women's History Month, so we made try to put a special emphasis on black woman in history for that event.

Duncan Crary: If you want to stay up to date on events such as that one, be sure to check out our Humanist Network News e zine, which comes out weekly, every week except for when we issue a podcast, where you can find up to date information on that event, and many others. To read and subscribe to Humanist Network News, the e zine, visit humanistnetworknews.org. Our weekly HNN e zine contains news, opinion and humor concerning current events and humanism. We have a great selection of freethought cartoons that you can't find anywhere else.

Duncan Crary: Speaking of announcements that you can find on Humanist Network News, the e zine, the Humanist Community of Silicon Valley in California, are looking to hire a new executive director. This is a part time position that involves volunteer support, arranging programs, speaking, counseling and fund raising. For more information, visit humanists.org, or you can call 650 327 1025. If you want to send your resume in, send it to frankfried@aol.com.

Duncan Crary: Normally at this point, I might consider playing a few listener comments, but we don't have any this month! What happened? Last show, we had three comments, and this show, none. So, give us a call people, let us know what's on your mind, let us know what you think about HNN, the podcast; let us know what you think about HNN, the e zine; tell us what's going on with you where you humanist group, or the world in general. You can leave a voice mail about anything you want, we've probably won't play it unless it has something to do with humanism, but let's use that phone number, folks! It's 206 339 4168, the HNN listener comment line.

Duncan Crary: For the next half of our program, we'll hear from Caspar Melville, editor of the New Humanist Magazine, based in the United Kingdom. New Humanist is a very popular magazine published every two months, and unlike many humanist publications in the United States, New Humanist has a real mainstream following. I spoke to Caspar last week over the phone.

Duncan Crary: I have Caspar Melville, editor of New Humanist Magazine, on the phone. Caspar, nice to speak with you.

Caspar Melville: Hello Duncan, how are you?

Duncan Crary: I'm fine. Thanks for joining us. I wanted to discuss with you one of the stories that appeared in the current issue of the New Humanist, but before I do that, for our listeners can you explain what is the New Humanist Magazine, who publishes it, and where is it available?

Caspar Melville: Where based in the UK. The publisher of New Humanist Magazine has always been an organization called the Rationalist Press Association, which has for 120 years been publishing New Humanist continually. Rationalist Press Association Is a publisher of atheist, secular and philosophical books, non conformist books, and has been since the end of the 19th century. It was formed by a man called Charles Watts, in fact, the last issue of the magazine, if anyone is interested in this story, was our 120th anniversary, and it has an essay in it, which retells this history. That's available from our website, you can get a free copy of that if you request it through our website, which is www.newhumanist.org.uk.

Caspar Melville: We are the oldest, and most well established, British humanist and rationalist magazine. We publish every two months. We distribute throughout the UK, and also abroad, mainly by subscription, but also through some bookstores and things like that. The magazine has gone through lot of different changes in style, it started its life off as something called Watts Literary Guide, which was a sort of catalog of secular and atheist books at a time when it was quite difficult to be very loudly humanist or atheist because of blasphemy laws. Subsequently, it became more overtly rationalist and atheist. In the past, it's had contributions from people like Bertram Russell, George Bernard Shaw, H.G. Wells and the Bloomsbury Set; it's got quite a venerable history. We are actually still based in Bloomsbury, in central London, so that history is still part of it.

Caspar Melville: More recently, we've become a kind of general interest magazine from a humanist and rationalist perspective, so while our aim is still to broadcast and support atheist, secular and humanist ideas, we do so by taking on a fairly wide range of philosophical, political, cultural and ascetic issues, and try to connect with a more general readership than, perhaps, in the past when it was a little bit more of an in house journal for the humanist movement.

Duncan Crary: I have to say, that's one of the reasons why it is one of our favorite publications here at the Humanist Network News.

Caspar Melville: I'm glad to hear that.

Duncan Crary: Our executive director, here at the institute, served as an international editor for the publication for a while.

Caspar Melville: That's Matt, is it?

Duncan Crary: That's Matt Cherry, yes. One the reasons why he really likes the publication so much is it gives humanists and journalists the opportunity to speak to a really intelligent audience and to incorporate a humanist perspective on a wide variety of issues, whereas over here in the US, we're really on a one track mind when it comes to talking about to humanism. Humanists over here are really concerned with church/state separation, and they don't really get a chance to comment on other cultural items. Do you have any insight as to why you think that is?

Caspar Melville: I think one issue, of course, is the enormous size, as it were, of the force that you are battling in the States; the avowed religiosity of the American people. Whether or not it's the case that forty percent feel that they have been born again, you have a political environment, which has church/state separation as its basis, and yet it's virtually anathema for any politician to say they don't believe in God, which is a very different situation than you have in Europe, as you know. Then you have the rising power of the Christian right, the creationist issues in schools, and you have the First Amendment, which allows you recourse, but you have to keep hammering away at the same kind of issues.

Caspar Melville: So, I guess that's one the reasons. For my perspective, from our side, we have the opposite situation in Britain politically, which is that we have established religion, and yet there is a feeling that we are a largely secular country, at least secularism is the kind of form against which the new things that are happening, as the world is changing, has brought religion back on the agenda, but in a slightly different way, not so much although we have a fairly religious cabinet at the moment, we have a religious prime minister, we have an extremely religious education secretary, which is quite unusual. Since the days of Gladstone, we haven't had such a religious government.

Caspar Melville: Still yet, although we involve ourselves in putting pressure on the government as and when we think it's necessary in relation to faith, schools, or other things like that, and we work closely with other organizations such as the British Humanist Association, with whom we share a building who are slightly more on the activist side; we, as it were, are working on the hearts and minds of people in general. Certainly my perspective on humanism I'm relatively new to humanism as a movement, I'm relatively new to the job, I started in June is very much that one of the fundamentals of what we believe is to keep an open mind, keep debating and keep discussing; actually not knowing in advance what is the humanist position on given subjects, but wanting to scrutinize it, look at it, think about it, think through the implications a bit.

Caspar Melville: We very much feel that through taking issues that are alive in the culture, not issuing a line on them, not saying, "This is the humanist line, " but examining them from the perspective of the human, with the perspective which is very allied to the kind of unwarranted power of the religious voice, or mysticism, a kind of skeptical way of approaching all the issues that surround us in the world, we think is a productive way forward, and a way to gather an audience, who wouldn't necessarily be particularly be turned on by the "ism" of humanism, and are a little bit scared of the apparent coldness of rationalism.

Duncan Crary: A good example of all of things you are talking about is actually a piece that you wrote for the current issue of New Humanist, which was actually picked up by the Los Angeles Times, I think last Friday.

Caspar Melville: Yes.

Duncan Crary: It's about the aftermath of the riots in France. Some politicians are trying to blame the riots on gangsta rap, which you describe as a misconception of how culture works. It's interesting because France is one of the most secular countries in Europe, and yet it has one of the largest Muslim populations in Western Europe. Is it fair to describe it that way?

Caspar Melville: Absolutely, yes.

Duncan Crary: Again, it has one of the strictest secular governments, and we've seen some other issues in the past, with the headscarf ban in schools. I'm wondering, can you explain what is the situation? What are these politicians trying to say about gangsta rap, and then how does it relate to the larger issue of that?

Caspar Melville: That piece, which was quite a small piece, I was drawing on my own path, as it were to a certain degree, because I have been a media journalist for twenty years, not a particularly well paid or famous media journalist, but that's what I did, that's how I got into journalism. I particularly used to write about not to be racially centrist what we would call black music, soul, jazz, funk, hip hop. I lived in America for a long time, in fact I lived in San Francisco, and I was in America during the LA riots. I was in America during the cop killer controversy around Ice T's song.

Caspar Melville: There were some pretty famous battles about the bad influence gangsta rap was having on society. I remember Tipper Gore and C. DeLores Tucker got involved. The Reverend Calvin Butts famously drove a steamroller over lots of rap CDs. I don't know if you remember these, but these were the various controversies which operated around fairly simplistic idea that if music worked in a particularly straightforward way, if the music said, "Young kids, you must go out and kill your parents, " then they would do that, as it were, taking ideas and implanting them in the minds of impressionable young people, and therefore, it was implicitly dangerous.

Caspar Melville: Whereas, the argument made from the other prospective, you might recall the famous song by NWA, which was be in not very nice to the police, perhaps I might put it that way, I know you're going to broadcast this. The argument made by Ice Cube, and the other people in NWA, was "I'm expressing a feeling that is out there on the streets. This is how people are feeling, and they are feeling this because a combination of things, including economic impoverishment, police brutality, and a sense desperation about life."

Caspar Melville: Whether or not there isn't also a fair amount of boasting and glorification of violence within hip hop, which there certainly is, but so there is in almost every other form of popular culture, including Goodfellows, gangster films, the Sopranos, every TV show you want to watch. The idea of pinning it onto just one musical form is suspect from the start.

Caspar Melville: What happened after the French riots was a large group of French members of Parliament gathered together and got up a petition. Most of them were right wingers Gaullists who were very much into France for the French, and against too much immigration, and wanted young black and African men to assimilate rapidly to "Frenchness". They said this music was responsible for stoking the flames of the riots and initiating violence.

This struck me as the weakest possible government response because actually, if you dug a little deeper, what you found was French rap, which is very successful in France is less so in the rest the world. I think this is partly because of language; very, very few English people speak French, even fewer French people, I would imagine by the percentage of the population, and therefore, it's a rather closed group. But, there is a huge market for French rap in France, not only, just like in America, among black youth, it's massively consumed by white suburban youth, and also in Africa.

Caspar Melville: What this music had been saying for ten years, at least, is "This is a terrible situation, there is impoverishment, there is racism, we want to be French, but we're not allowed to be French." Rather than turning around and blaming the music, a lot of these guys would have had their time better used by actually sitting down and listening to it and considering what these people were actually trying to say. The really obvious lesson that was coming from the people we saw on the news, the young men that were interviewed on the BBC anyway, the rappers, these were actually very reasonable people.

Caspar Melville: Okay, some of them were just going wild running in the streets doing bad things, but actually, there was very little of that. It wasn't anywhere near the rioting you saw, for example, in LA. Nothing like that, it was actually rather restrained. It was people smashing up and burning cars, which is an extremely French form of social protest. There was one old man who died because he was attacked and had a week heart, but there was very little physical violence, person on person. It wasn't really race riots either. It was it clear message being sent to the government from a group from areas were there is forty percent unemployment. I don't know if you've been to Paris, Duncan.

Duncan Crary: No.

Caspar Melville: If you go to Paris, it's very obvious that while it is a very diverse, racially mixed city, nearly all the poor areas of Paris are pushed to the periphery. It is extremely rich, very bourgeois, very, very nice in Central Paris. Then, in these concentric rings around Paris are these very depressing, high rise suburbs. What do you call them in America?

Duncan Crary: Projects.

Caspar Melville: Yes, like Cabrini Green type places. With forty percent unemployment, with people who want to be French, who speak French, who, in fact, are great users of the French language.

That's the irony of this thing, which is these young men, who are rapping in French, are modernizing and infusing life into the French language. They are using it in a very sophisticated manner, which is very French in itself. This is not saying, "These alien youth come in with their alien music, " that's what the French MPs might want to think. This is what Thomas Friedman said in the New York Times as well, which is it was another very poor attempt to try and understand it. He basically said one effect of globalization is we export gangsta rap to France, and look what it does.

It's a pathetic misunderstanding of how music is transmitted around the world.

Caspar Melville: I suppose to get back to the original point, what does this have to do with humanism, it seems to me you have to suspend judgment when it comes to a dogmatic idea about corrosive effects of any particular cultural object.

You need to think about why people are doing it, who is doing it, the actually humans involved, and what they might be after, what their motives might be, and be incredibly skeptical about the that way governments respond to these kinds of things, which is nearly always wrong, it seems to me.

Duncan Crary: In listening to the news about the riots, when it made international news, I may have misdiagnosed the situation because I wasn't paying close enough attention, but many of the people involved in riots were black and Muslims, correct? The Muslims population in France mostly comes from North Africa, is that correct?

Caspar Melville: Yes.

Duncan Crary: This really wasn't an issue that had anything to with religion, is correct?

Caspar Melville: Yes, I absolutely believe that. I think problem is often with these things, different countries can to interpret what happens in other places according to their own terms. The terms under which people can understand what happens in France in the UK are primarily to do with race; black youth running wild in the streets. Also in America that's the case. You've had your own, as it were, race riots. They're not always to do with race; they're nearly always to do with class, inequality and racism quite often.

Caspar Melville: The other very obvious frame to place upon it was the war on terror, the clash of civilizations and Muslims against the West. That is a totally inaccurate portrait when it comes to understanding this phenomenon in France. Whether or not these youth were Muslims or not, and the degree in which they were Muslim; some of them are secular Muslims, some of them have Muslim families, a few of them go to mosque; these are not fundamentalists, these are not people who are saying, "I reject France, " these are not people who say, "I do not want to live in the country where there is separation of church and state, " none of that.

They don't have big beards, they don't worship in mosques all the time; they are bored suburban youth who have had their opportunities blocked, and are subject to a fair amount of police brutality, and they are basically being ignored. I don't know if you've seen the film "La Haine", which is kind of like the "Boyz in the Hood" of France, which was made ten years ago and tells you all you need to know about this situation, to be honest.

Caspar Melville: The people that we talk about, some of them are called Yusuf, some of them are from Muslim families, but it's not a religious issue. It's an inequality issue. It's "You promised me citizenship if I did the following things; assimilate French culture, learn how to speak French and go through the education system. Well, I have done all of that, and I am still unemployed." At the same time, like often happens here, they did things in the media like youth of Algerian extraction applying for jobs, and an equivalent guy applying with a French name, and would be something like a ten to one kind of response. That kind of thing, that the root of it, is not any kind of dysfunction in mind of the French Muslim.

Caspar Melville: One of the roots of it, very much like in England, is France's inability to come to terms with its colonial past. They have an incredibly bloody record in Algeria, a terrible record. "The Battle for Algiers, " the famous film, will tell you something about this; it was an awful episode in French history, which they can't quite come to terms with. The weird irony of it all is they lost their colony, very much like what has happened in Britain, and gained a whole generation of new French citizens that they can't quite fit into their idea of what France should be like. It's created this enormous sort of self examination and crisis of identity in France or not created it, but part of a larger process of that, which is still playing itself out.

Caspar Melville: It's very similar to what happened in the UK in the 1980s. We have riots, where I live, in Brixton in 1980, and then again in 1985, which were very much involving post colonial youth, who felt there was a ceiling imposed on their ability to come full citizens of the country they wanted to be a part of. All the arguments about how they were unassimilable, how they were reticent, how they were inherently violent, how they were so different that perhaps they should go back to where they came from; very similar patterns going on here.

Caspar Melville: I think that part of our job as journalists in general, but also as humanists, as skeptics, as people who aren't going to be satisfied with the governmental line or the easily reached for, and often, near racist arguments about these things, we need to look beneath the surface and not get too wrapped up, in this case in particular, with the issue of religion, strangely enough. Understand that there is a dividing line, but actually I don't think it's the cause or it's not a problem here, in this particular case.

Duncan Crary: You are all doing an excellent job at New Humanist. I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us.

Caspar Melville: Oh, it was great fun.

Duncan Crary: I will definitely have you back, Caspar, thanks so much.

Caspar Melville: Thank you, Duncan.

Duncan Crary: For all of our listeners, definitely visit newhumaist.org.uk, where you can find some of these articles online, you can subscribe to the magazine, and you can subscribe to a fortnightly email newsletter that the New Humanist sends out, which I am a subscriber of, and I enjoyed very much.

Caspar Melville: Okay, thanks very much.

Duncan Crary: Thank you Caspar, we'll talk soon.

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Duncan Crary: You're listening to Humanist Network News; I'm your host Duncan Crary. That was a little sampling of French rap, by Leeroy Kanaka AKA Leeroy Boy. His song is call "En Terre Surprise" and you can hear more of his music at www.leeroy.fr. Leeroy belongs to another very popular French rap group, Saan Supa Crew. Their website is saiansupacrew.com.

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Duncan Crary: While I was searching around for French rap and listening to it, I discovered that there is one podcast out there that's dedicated entirely to French rap, called Yo La La. The second installment of that show concentrates solely on the gangsta variety of French rap. So, if you want to check out that show, visit www.YoLaLa.org.

Before the song, we heard an interview with Caspar Melville, editor of the New Humanist Magazine, which is published in England. To learn more about New Humanist, visit newhumanist.org.uk. We plan to have Caspar on our show regularly to keep us up to date on European news.

Well, that's all the time we have for this show. Hope you can join us again next month. In the meantime, why don't you start thinking about what you can say on the listener comments, then call 206 339 4168 to leave a voice mail message that we can play on our next podcast.

Humanist Network News is a production of the non profit Institute for Humanist Studies, which is based in Albany, New York. To and more about the Institute, visit americanhumanist.org. To read our weekly e zine and to subscribe, visit humanistnetworknews.org. Thanks for listening.

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